This Program Has Officially Fallen

[doomfarer]

How many of these players that are recruited are actually from Oklahoma or Kansas?

[shockfan89_]

I agree with a lot of what has been said, but haven't we had highly ranked (for WSU standards) over the past 3 years???

[KC Shox]

I would certainly like to keep BK in the mix.

Why does Kemnitz get a pass in this discussion?

His pitchers are out there throwing like little girls.

JT and Gene are getting lots of constructive analysis Brent certainly deserves a portion of it.

I wish they would have stayed at OU.

The lack of offensive and defensive support has now affected our pitchers, IMO. We got pitchers out there who do not expect run support and lack confidence in their defense behind them. When you already have to worry about the other team's hitters then sprinkle on top of that the poor defense and offense I'm pretty sure our pitchers mindset has taken a hit.

When your defense can't help you out, this forces a pitcher to get into the mindset of having to throw perfect pitches every time out. This has to wear on a guy. If you were pitching and kept seeing your defense screw you over and over I'm sure it takes it toll.

[shox1989]

I have been a "reader" here for many years, and although I rarely post, I thought I would give my .02 on what is going on with WSU Baseball.
While I agree to a point with a lot of the posts about the dead ball, and the bat rules, I feel there are 2 things that have caused us to be where we are at today.
#1) WSU created it's own monster in the 80's and 90's with facility upgrades. Every kid growing up who played competitive baseball in the midwest in the early-mid 80's wanted to go play at WSU. They had the wins, facilities, fan support, coaching, and several players going into MLB. For several years, WSU had the pick of who they wanted from Kansas or Oklahoma. Then, other schools in the midwest began to realize that Men's Baseball can be a money generating sport. They started upgrading,l and pumping money into those programs. These schools began winning games, and thus stealing some of the "sure thing" kids WSU used to monopolize. There are several schools within a couple hundred miles of Wichita that have comparable stadiums and facilities. Combined with the fact that other schools have more of a "College Atmosphere" we loose out on some of those kids. So, by proving that baseball can be a $ producer, other schools copied the blueprint. Instead of getting the majority of kids we recruited, we now have to fight with the OU's, Nebraska's and such of the world. I feel like we loose more of those battles off the field than we win anymore.
2) The Ben Christensen incident. Before that, we were known as a tough, hard nosed team that would put their foot on your throat and never let up. I know it isn't the case, but it seems like as a kid every time OSU came to play there was a fight. We got a certain type of kid who was tough mentaly and physically and also extremely talented. For several years after Christensen, I felt as if many teams really pushed us into a corner, knowing that we wouldn't, and couldn't "fight" back. When that culture invades your program, it is almost difficult to irradicate. I don't work in the program, so I can only say my opinion. I think Gene is looking for kids who are players 1st, and tough 2nd. I really think it used to be the other way around.
That being said, I really believe that the IPF will be the straw that will get more of the upper ier kids to choose WSU. It is an amazing facility, and really adds a lot to the program.
Again, this is just my opinion, and I am sure several of you will dissagree with it. I just felt like I wanted to ive my .02 as a lifelong fan of WSU.

Two very good points. I think I pretty much agree with everything you said. I also agree with shocker3 that this team has played a lot of excellent teams on the road, so we shouldn't commit suicide over the way this season is going so far. (Personally I think that getting rid of Gene and Brent is SUICIDE. They ARE Shocker baseball.)

[Wheatshocker]

I'm glad you posted MizzouShocker. This is a fan message board, and a lifelong fan like you should never hesitate to give his .02.

[ShockerFever]

I just got home from the game and I am a little disappointed on how quickly you guys are ready to give up on this team and the coaches.

I think we shouldn't over react. I went over to warren nolan to check our rpi and the rpis of our opponents.

We have played a pretty tough schedule so far with a lot of tough games on the road. A 14-8 record (.636 winning percentage) isn't that bad.

A breakdown of our record by our opponents rpi:

RPI TOP 25- 0-3 (all 3 games on the road)
RPI 26 TO 50- 2-2 (only 1 home game of the 4)
PRI 51 TO 100- 2-2 (all 4 games away from home)

RPI 101 TO 150: 2-1
PRI 151 TO 200: 3-0
RPI 200 and worse: 5-0

The bottom line is that we have played 11 games (4-7) against the rpi top 100 and only one of them has been at home.

Our only loss outside the top 100 is one loss to FLORIDA GULF COAST (#142). And I have a feeling that by the end of the season that will also look like a much better loss (and 2 wins).

If our basketball team played half of their first 22 games against the rpi top 100 and only played one of those games at home, I think we would be estatic with a 14-8 overall record.

Right now our rpi is 67 (not great but far from horrible). Our two best wins are against Washington St. #36 and Long Beach St. #42 and our worst loss is against Florida Gulf Coast #142.

Right now we don't have any losses that should hurt us at the end of the season (I think FCG will be much better than 142 by then). Of course that could change after this weekend if we lose to UE. (Although UE's rpi isn't that bad right now at 127- but I expect that it will be worse by the end of the season).

Do I wish we were doing better, yes. I always want us to win and I want to go to Omaha every year. But I dont think we should overreact to our start . We are having far from a horrible season. In fact, we are still ranked #30 in the country.

Baseball is a long season. This team has played some very good teams on the road so far and has picked up a couple of good wins. Hopefully we will pick up a few more before the season is over. :wsu_posters:

I admit that was some nice sugarcoating, shocker3. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as looking at the numbers. But since you did bring them up, how bad are we losing games. We absolutely got eaten alive at Arizona and even ORU to an extent. We weren't even competitive. Literally, the Arizona games were over after the 2nd inning. How can you spin that?

And then you have to look beyond the numbers. Have you watched this team play? (I'm sure you have or you did last night.) Did you see the 5 lovetap hits we mustered last night? Did you see the meatballs Grant Muncrief was serving up? Or for the entire bullpen for that matter? There was not one pitcher that stepped up and bared down on their first batter from the get-go. There is no confidence with the bullpen. I know I feel it everytime we get to there. You'd probably be lying if you didn't feel that sinking feeling either. Hell, it's obvious Gene isn't confident in them either. And what about the defense? Did you watch how balls were thrown into center field? Did you not see not once but TWICE our centerfielder overrun balls and have to scurry back to retrieve a Little League blunder that they made? And this wasn't just a freak game. This has been going on ALL YEAR.

It's a sad, sad, oh so sad day.. :(

[ShockerFever]

I have been a "reader" here for many years, and although I rarely post, I thought I would give my .02 on what is going on with WSU Baseball.
While I agree to a point with a lot of the posts about the dead ball, and the bat rules, I feel there are 2 things that have caused us to be where we are at today.
#1) WSU created it's own monster in the 80's and 90's with facility upgrades. Every kid growing up who played competitive baseball in the midwest in the early-mid 80's wanted to go play at WSU. They had the wins, facilities, fan support, coaching, and several players going into MLB. For several years, WSU had the pick of who they wanted from Kansas or Oklahoma. Then, other schools in the midwest began to realize that Men's Baseball can be a money generating sport. They started upgrading,l and pumping money into those programs. These schools began winning games, and thus stealing some of the "sure thing" kids WSU used to monopolize. There are several schools within a couple hundred miles of Wichita that have comparable stadiums and facilities. Combined with the fact that other schools have more of a "College Atmosphere" we loose out on some of those kids. So, by proving that baseball can be a $ producer, other schools copied the blueprint. Instead of getting the majority of kids we recruited, we now have to fight with the OU's, Nebraska's and such of the world. I feel like we loose more of those battles off the field than we win anymore.
2) The Ben Christensen incident. Before that, we were known as a tough, hard nosed team that would put their foot on your throat and never let up. I know it isn't the case, but it seems like as a kid every time OSU came to play there was a fight. We got a certain type of kid who was tough mentaly and physically and also extremely talented. For several years after Christensen, I felt as if many teams really pushed us into a corner, knowing that we wouldn't, and couldn't "fight" back. When that culture invades your program, it is almost difficult to irradicate. I don't work in the program, so I can only say my opinion. I think Gene is looking for kids who are players 1st, and tough 2nd. I really think it used to be the other way around.
That being said, I really believe that the IPF will be the straw that will get more of the upper ier kids to choose WSU. It is an amazing facility, and really adds a lot to the program.
Again, this is just my opinion, and I am sure several of you will dissagree with it. I just felt like I wanted to ive my .02 as a lifelong fan of WSU.

Those are two very good points. You should post more often.

Now that you mention it, ever since 1999 and the Christensen incident, we have tanked. I've tried to decipher a time period when the slide began and I think you absolutely nailed it.

That dark incident has definitely cast a shadow long after it has passed..

[XManCometh]

The problem is our recruiting. These kids just aren't as good as players in the past. There are a few possible reasons why this happening:

1) The two states where Gene gets a majority of his guys, Kansas and Oklahoma, just aren't putting out top tier talent anymore.
2) All the top prospects we go after either go pro after HS, or they're heading to the Big 12 to play.
3) The coaching staff is stuck in their ways looking for the astroturf player. As in: a speed player who slaps the ball through the holes/into the gaps and hopes for extra bases.

Actually, it's probably all 3 wrapped into one.

But, baseball recruiting is really a crap-shoot anyway and it's possible that the guys we've had come in lately have all under-achieved (doubtful). The 2008 team had quite a few top-talent players so I wouldn't say that the program has "officially fallen off", but if the talent level doesn't start going in the other direction we're going to be stuck hoping to just go to a Regional, instead of expecting to host one.

[shocker3]

I just got home from the game and I am a little disappointed on how quickly you guys are ready to give up on this team and the coaches.

I think we shouldn't over react. I went over to warren nolan to check our rpi and the rpis of our opponents.

We have played a pretty tough schedule so far with a lot of tough games on the road. A 14-8 record (.636 winning percentage) isn't that bad.

A breakdown of our record by our opponents rpi:

RPI TOP 25- 0-3 (all 3 games on the road)
RPI 26 TO 50- 2-2 (only 1 home game of the 4)
PRI 51 TO 100- 2-2 (all 4 games away from home)

RPI 101 TO 150: 2-1
PRI 151 TO 200: 3-0
RPI 200 and worse: 5-0

The bottom line is that we have played 11 games (4-7) against the rpi top 100 and only one of them has been at home.

Our only loss outside the top 100 is one loss to FLORIDA GULF COAST (#142). And I have a feeling that by the end of the season that will also look like a much better loss (and 2 wins).

If our basketball team played half of their first 22 games against the rpi top 100 and only played one of those games at home, I think we would be estatic with a 14-8 overall record.

Right now our rpi is 67 (not great but far from horrible). Our two best wins are against Washington St. #36 and Long Beach St. #42 and our worst loss is against Florida Gulf Coast #142.

Right now we don't have any losses that should hurt us at the end of the season (I think FCG will be much better than 142 by then). Of course that could change after this weekend if we lose to UE. (Although UE's rpi isn't that bad right now at 127- but I expect that it will be worse by the end of the season).

Do I wish we were doing better, yes. I always want us to win and I want to go to Omaha every year. But I dont think we should overreact to our start . We are having far from a horrible season. In fact, we are still ranked #30 in the country.

Baseball is a long season. This team has played some very good teams on the road so far and has picked up a couple of good wins. Hopefully we will pick up a few more before the season is over. :wsu_posters:

I admit that was some nice sugarcoating, shocker3. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as looking at the numbers. But since you did bring them up, how bad are we losing games. We absolutely got eaten alive at Arizona and even ORU to an extent. We weren't even competitive. Literally, the Arizona games were over after the 2nd inning. How can you spin that?

And then you have to look beyond the numbers. Have you watched this team play? (I'm sure you have or you did last night.) Did you see the 5 lovetap hits we mustered last night? Did you see the meatballs Grant Muncrief was serving up? Or for the entire bullpen for that matter? There was not one pitcher that stepped up and bared down on their first batter from the get-go. There is no confidence with the bullpen. I know I feel it everytime we get to there. You'd probably be lying if you didn't feel that sinking feeling either. Hell, it's obvious Gene isn't confident in them either. And what about the defense? Did you watch how balls were thrown into center field? Did you not see not once but TWICE our centerfielder overrun balls and have to scurry back to retrieve a Little League blunder that they made? And this wasn't just a freak game. This has been going on ALL YEAR.

It's a sad, sad, oh so sad day.. :(

Please calm down and quit over reacting. That is all I was asking.

Yes I have seen most of the games this team has played this year. No I don't like it when they make errors and don't play sound baseball. Which I have seen more of than I like but again I don't over re-act.

I have been watching baseball for about 45 years and I have been watching Shocker baseball for 32 years. In fact I have probably watched more shocker baseball games than anyone alive except the coaches. I have yet to see a perfect baseball team. One that never makes errors or always gets timely hits or always has a reliever that can get everybody out (although Jimmy Newlin was pretty close).

Even the 1989 team which won a national championship had plenty of faults and plenty of bad games. They had the luxury of starting the season with about half of their first 22 games being played against non-division 1 teams at home (instead of half of their games on the road against the rpi top 100).

The 1989 championship team certainly had their great games and moments but they certainly had their bad ones too. I remember watching them struggle to beat Ft. Hays St by one run. I remember them losing to Lewis & Clark, I remember them losing to a bad Ku team at home late in the season and getting booed by some fair weathered Shocker fans.

I remember them closing out the regular season at home by getting beaten badly by BYU twice (Arizona games type of bad).

I remember them losing the Valley tourney at home (Indiana St. won it).

Baseball can just drive you nuts sometimes. A 15-8 record, considering the tough schedule we have played so far is not that bad and certainly is not worth talking about firing the coaches over.

Going on the road early in the season to places like Long Beach and Arizona is never easy. And we haven't won at ORU since the mid 90s, so losing there isn't anything new either (ORU doesn't lose too many games at home). Yeah I wish we had done better, but there is still a lot more season left to be played.

I certainly intend to enjoy watching a lot more Shocker baseball this year and I hope that Gene still has many good years left in him.


:wsu_posters:

[SB Shock]

sorry I watched the 1989 team play. The 2010 edition is no 1989 team.

[ISASO]

The unfortunate thing is that the margin for error is reduced to near zero for this program. Given the weakness of the conference and the power held by the national seeds come tournament time we have to put up near-perfect records in the non-conference or we're sunk.

We are under incredible and unrelenting pressure to do three things:
win most of the non-conference games against good RPI opponents, beat up on the weak non-con teams AND to dominate the conference. Each and every season.

Requirement #1, winning most of the non-conference games against good RPI opponents, is already out the window so all that's left are the factors that get us the least amount of respect come selection day.

[shoxlax]

I will play devil's advocate. I think we have overcame the beanball incident and to some degree the OU coaching debacle. Proof is we were in two super regionals and were dangerously close the last one to Omaha. However, our slide last year and into this one coincides with our head man's personal, legal and financial issues off the field. That coupled with getting hammered three and four years ago by the draft and the fact we don't have a strong assistant coach that can pick up and "take charge" is why we looked like we've haven't been coached much of the time.

That being said, we have a talented freshman and sophomore class. These guys all performed at a high level in summer ball against other D-1 and pro prospects. It would be a shame to see them go to waste.

[Show_Me_the_Wulah]

sorry I watched the 1989 team play. The 2010 edition is no 1989 team.

Sad that we compare against a team that competed 21 years ago...


and it isn't a fair comparison.. you can't truthfully/accurately compare anything from present day that happened 2+ decades ago.. imho

[SB Shock]

sorry I watched the 1989 team play. The 2010 edition is no 1989 team.

Sad that we compare against a team that competed 21 years ago...


and it isn't a fair comparison.. you can't truthfully/accurately compare anything from present day that happened 2+ decades ago.. imho

Regardless, whether it is fair or not to compare the 2010, you can't have it both ways. You can't have the apologists say "well the 1989 team had it problems just like....blah blah".

I would disagree you can't compare the two - you can easily put the two teams side by side and make comparison to determine the state of the program and the relative strength and weaknesses of each team.

Bottom line is the 2010 team will be judged on what it does post season. If they somehow are able to finally get it together and have a WSU team overachieve for once (it has been a long time since that has happened), then there will be a sense of excitement returning to the program.

[shocker3]

sorry I watched the 1989 team play. The 2010 edition is no 1989 team.

I was not trying to say that the 2010 team is equal to the 1989 team. I was just saying that even one of our best teams ever (the 1982 team would be the other one) had faults and some bad games (even getting booed by the home crowd late in the season). In fact the 1989 team had a couple of terrible games to close the regular season.