Gun Control

[Aargh]

I haven't found a need to fire anything for a lot of years, but I pulled from behind the first joint. With a long gun, I was accurate out to about 300 yards (no scope). With a .45, I was accurate out to about 20 yards (4 of 5 inside the size of a silver dollar). Those were military grade weapons.

Breath control and a steady pull is all that's required. Maybe it's easier with just the tip of your finger, but I had no problem with a deeper finger penetration. At this time I think I need to say that I'm still talking about gun control.

[MoValley John]

Gun control.

sevsxd.jpg

[SB Shock]

I think it is unfair to imply that “not technically a loophole” equals “end of story”. I would argue that the “loophole” discussion is merely a battle over the English language, and only one step more profitable than the grammar police who spend their time worrying about the use of “there” and “their”. So what if it is already illegal for a felon to buy a gun from a private party? Can’t we admit that there is virtually no ability to enforce it on the front end? Sure, prosecutors can go after such felons if they are ever caught with the gun doing something else illegal, but that only helps on the tail end if they are caught for other reasons. It does no good in stopping the purchase and possession in the first place.

There is consequences for allowing "straw" purchases to occur. Both legal and civil consequences. You can go to jail for 10 years. On the civil side - Milwaukee jury just awarded $5 million worth of damages to two cops against a gun dealer who allowed a "straw" purchase to occur and then the weapon was used to shoot the officers. If you choose to be a "private seller" - there is considerable risk to you if you sell a weapon and it gets into the wrong hands. Most guys I know won't even consider doing a private sale and will only sell it to a gun dealer/ffl (and take a hit) than risk it.

Second, it not like the ATF is not policing gun shows. There is numerous cases where they are enforcing the "front end" and taking out those dealers who are violating the laws. ACLU released a report about how the ATF was using automatic license plate readers to track people at guns shows and have been building up a huge database.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

SB Shock,

A “straw” purchase is something else altogether. That involves a party passing a background check and buying a gun for someone else who wouldn’t have passed. I’m glad there is prosecution going on when it can be proven that a seller was completely negligent in what should have been obvious to be a straw purchase.

Also, yes, some private sellers won’t sell except to dealers. I agree that they are probably smart to play it safe that way.

However, many private sellers will sell to anyone. These aren’t straw purchases as the actual person who wants the gun is the one buying it. I don’t think a felon would have a hard time scoping out tables at a gun show until they found a private seller who was simply selling to anyone who had the money. Under the current system that doesn’t seem hard to do.

Regarding the ATF, if a felon gets a ride from a buddy who isn’t restricted from buying a gun, walks in, buys from a private seller, and leaves with his buddy, I see no way that the current system ends up with any record that he just illegally purchased a gun. Am I wrong?

[SB Shock]

SB Shock,

A “straw” purchase is something else altogether. That involves a party passing a background check and buying a gun for someone else who wouldn’t have passed. I’m glad there is prosecution going on when it can be proven that a seller was completely negligent in what should have been obvious to be a straw purchase.

Also, yes, some private sellers won’t sell except to dealers. I agree that they are probably smart to play it safe that way.

However, many private sellers will sell to anyone. These aren’t straw purchases as the actual person who wants the gun is the one buying it. I don’t think a felon would have a hard time scoping out tables at a gun show until they found a private seller who was simply selling to anyone who had the money. Under the current system that doesn’t seem hard to do.

Regarding the ATF, if a felon gets a ride from a buddy who isn’t restricted from buying a gun, walks in, buys from a private seller, and leaves with his buddy, I see no way that the current system ends up with any record that he just illegally purchased a gun. Am I wrong?

So why does the felon need a buddy who isn't restricted from buying a gun?

[MoValley John]

Few guns are bought and sold from unlicensed dealers. Fewer yet are the criminals that purchased guns from unlicensed dealers at the gun show. There is a large black market in which felons and gangsters purchase weapons. More gun control is not going to shut down that black market. The local guy in Wichita with a felony record and ties to Italian mafia does not get his guns at the gun show. The Russian immigrant, who is also a felon and owns the liquor/ tobacco quickee marts in Wichita, does not get his guns at the gun show. The 11th Street crip gang member, or whatever they call the crips in Wichita, does not get his guns at the gun show. I may be wrong, but I believe every mass shooting in the last decade, was committed with guns that were leagally obtained.

I would support really, really long, minimum maximums for illegal possession of a firearm. If we could come up with a standard,I would support banning ownership from certain psych cases. There are other standards I would support. Dealing in underground and illegal firearms should be a life sentence. I would support that. Blaming the gun show does not address any of the issues.

[engrshock]

I do not really see much "gun control" that would make much difference. The change needs to be with the people.

If I know that someone is carrying a gun in public and I do not know them or trust that they have had the proper training to handle a gun in public situations I will leave that area.
For example if I am at a movie theater and see that someone is carrying I will not stay there.
Frankly I would wonder at the mental status of someone that feels the need to bring a gun to a movie theater, bank or similar situation.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

So why does the felon need a buddy who isn't restricted from buying a gun?

I don't know that he necessarily would. I was merely accounting for your comments about ATF checking license plates outside gun shows. Grab a ride from a buddy and the ATF has no idea you were there. So much for tracking who goes to gun shows via license plates and building a database that way.

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

I may be wrong, but I believe every mass shooting in the last decade, was committed with guns that were leagally obtained.

This chart goes back more than a decade, but clearly illegally obtained guns have been used in mass shootings a number of times. Less than half the time, yes, but still much more than zero.

[ShockdaWorld]

I know the mass shootings are the ones we all read/hear about every day, so it's much easier to find statistics related to those. There are numerous times more people killed via individual homicides than in mass shootings. I'd like to see some statistics concerning singular homicides. How many are committed using legally obtained guns? Illegally obtained guns? Knives? I'm sure there is somewhere out there to find the information, I just don't have time to go research it right now.

[KraRam]

Just a thought...wouldn't most guns on the street have been purchased legally first?

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

Yes, probably so. Where are you heading KraRam?

[MoValley John]

Just a thought...wouldn't most guns on the street have been purchased legally first?

Well.... Yeah. But the very vast majority of guns are purchased, owned and used legally and safely. You don't hear about the gun that is owned, protected and used safely and legally. In fact, I'd venture to say that there are more guns on my street than on just about any of the most violent streets in town. We just happen to own them legallyand use them safely. Oh, and we don't shoot at each other, either.

[SB Shock]

I don't know that he necessarily would. I was merely accounting for your comments about ATF checking license plates outside gun shows. Grab a ride from a buddy and the ATF has no idea you were there. So much for tracking who goes to gun shows via license plates and building a database that way.

I was only pointing out that gun shows are not this deep underworld were anything goes - but in fact the ATF is out there actively interdicting, including to the point where the ACLU is concerned that civil liberties are being violated.

I am still not sure why you are so focused on gun shows when a 1997 study by the department of justice concluded only 2% of criminal guns came from gun shows. It seem you real issue is with "private sellers". So what would solution for regulating private sellers?

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

I agree gun shows are a small piece of the "what do we do about gun violence" issue.

The reason I'm asking a lot of questions about them is because the "gun show loophole" gets a lot of national attention and gets debated between both sides. Yes, I would agree that it would be better to talk about the "private seller loophole" (if we have to use the word loophole at all) because that is much closer to the actual issue at hand. Gun shows are just one venue out of many where private sales happen.

I guess I'd like to go back to a simple premise. I hear conservatives often say "there is no gun show loophole". It still seems to me that a felon can get a gun from a gun show, and if he is even remotely intelligent about how he does it, he can leave with a gun and no part of the current system allows us any chance to actually know he bought a gun, much the less actually stop him from doing so. Loophole or not, that seems like an issue worth addressing. I don't necessarily have THE answer, just trying to verify that my understanding of the current system is correct. I trust that I can learn much more from people on this board than I can from the loudmouthed liars on TV.