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  • Gun Control

    As someone who is right of center on almost all issues, gun control is probably the single biggest issue where I’m “undecided”. For the sake of this post, I’ll make some of the arguments that I hear from the left. I’d be interested to hear some responses from posters on the right.

    My understanding is that private sellers don’t have to do background checks. So a convicted felon can walk into a gun show and purchase a gun from a private seller without anyone even being aware that he was supposed to be prohibited from purchasing one.

    I hear conservatives respond that "there is no gun show loophole". They say this isn’t a loophole because the law already states that the felon is not allowed to purchase a gun. A felon purchasing a gun is already an illegal action. A loophole technically involves finding a legal way around the law and its intentions, and this is therefore not a loophole because the actions of the felon are still illegal.

    I think it is unfair to imply that “not technically a loophole” equals “end of story”. I would argue that the “loophole” discussion is merely a battle over the English language, and only one step more profitable than the grammar police who spend their time worrying about the use of “there” and “their”. So what if it is already illegal for a felon to buy a gun from a private party? Can’t we admit that there is virtually no ability to enforce it on the front end? Sure, prosecutors can go after such felons if they are ever caught with the gun doing something else illegal, but that only helps on the tail end if they are caught for other reasons. It does no good in stopping the purchase and possession in the first place.

    I'm curious what others have to add to this discussion.

  • #2
    My understanding (based on cursory readings of a few articles recently) is that if you sell a firearm at a gun show, you are a dealer, which requires a federal firearms license. That then requires them to follow all applicable laws on the sale of firearms. So any "loophole" would actually be an illegal act.

    No, if you and I were neighbors (or at least we live in the same state) and I wanted to sell you a firearm (and I'm not a dealer), no background check or other documentation is required.

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    • #3
      I just did a quick Google search after my previous reply and came across this article from the Cato Institute from 2000:

      Conversely, people who are not engaged in the business of selling firearms, but who sell firearms from time to time (such as a man who sells a hunting rifle to his brother-in-law), are not required to obtain the federal license required of gun dealers or to call the FBI before completing the sale.

      Similarly, if a gun collector dies and his widow wants to sell the guns, she does not need a federal firearms license because she is just selling off inherited property and is not “engaged in the business.” And if the widow doesn’t want to sell her deceased husband’s guns by taking out a classified ad in the newspaper, it is lawful for her to rent a table at a gun show and sell the entire collection.


      If you walk along the aisles at any gun show, you will find that the overwhelming majority of guns offered for sale are from federally licensed dealers. Guns sold by private individuals (such as gun collectors getting rid of a gun or two over the the weekend) are the distinct minority.


      Yet HCI claims that “25-50 percent of the vendors at most gun shows are unlicensed dealers.” That statistic is true only if one counts vendors who aren’t selling guns (e.g., vendors who are selling books, clothing or accessories) as “unlicensed dealers.”
      So, I guess there is a "loophole", but it's not unique to gun shows.

      And here is another site with a map showing what each state requires.

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      • #4
        Gun control is the ability to hit what you are aiming at.

        It might be technically illegal for a felon to buy a gun and for a seller to sell a gun to a felon, but unless they are caught in the act, it is virtually impossible to enforce. Driving 75 in a 70 mph speed zone is also against the law, but unless you are caught in the act, there is no enforcement.

        A rather simple solution is to pass legislation that if any gun registered to you is used in a crime, that you are never allowed to buy another gun. That would include violations enforced by fish and game. Then people selling guns would be likely to document the change of ownership. Might make hunting violations a little less common.

        I know - I'm promoting "big brother is watching you" government with my radical proposal to cram yet additional legislation down everybody's throat.
        The future's so bright - I gotta wear shades.
        We like to cut down nets and get sized for championship rings.

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        • #5
          Or if you're the ATF you can sell to Mexican Cartels. There is that loophole.
          ShockerHoops.net - A Wichita State Basketball Blog

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          • #6
            I'm torn on gun control. I think there should be some more regulation, but I fear that more regulation won't be reasonable. There is a faction on the right that wants everybody to be carrying, yet there are plenty on the left that believes reasonable gun regulation means confiscate them all and melt them down.

            As a guy that has both bought and sold guns, I can tell you that there are fewer guns sold without a background check than we are led to believe. It's not to difficult to identify straw purchasers, and most guns sold at a gun show are done through a dealer with a ffl.
            There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese.

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            • #7
              Yes, private sales are a small percentage of all gun sales. Numbers are often blown out of proportion as discussions get more political and less factual.

              Yes, some people just go crazy and there is nothing we could have done to prevent their shootings beforehand. I get tired of the gun control advocates using every single shooting as an example of the need for more regulations. Often, these people actually did pass a background check and the absolute only thing that could have helped prevent such shootings would have been mass confiscation such that guns were very scarce. I think we can all agree that we would pretty much have another civil war in this country before that was allowed to happen. It is pretty much a non-option.

              I have actually been told that I “don’t care that a couple dozen toddlers got shot in the face” because I don’t fully agree with all of the left’s proposals following Sandy Hook. When I responded that it was preposterous to say that I “didn’t care”, I was told “well, you don’t”. Uggghhh.

              With all of that said, what valid reasoning is there for not requiring a background check for all gun sales?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by MoValley John View Post
                I'm torn on gun control. I think there should be some more regulation, but I fear that more regulation won't be reasonable. .

                .
                This. So much this.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Couple days ago I noticed a headline (I think in The Eagle) that someone somewhere in Eurpoe (Sweden - I think) went on a killing spree in a school - using a knife.

                  You can do a lot of damage with a baseball bat, but I don't see anybody calling for restricted sales or confiscation of those. Or crowbars. We'll even sell bats and crowbars to kids! We encourage kids to learn how to use baseball bats! What are we thinking?
                  The future's so bright - I gotta wear shades.
                  We like to cut down nets and get sized for championship rings.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Aargh View Post
                    Couple days ago I noticed a headline (I think in The Eagle) that someone somewhere in Eurpoe (Sweden - I think) went on a killing spree in a school - using a knife.

                    You can do a lot of damage with a baseball bat, but I don't see anybody calling for restricted sales or confiscation of those. Or crowbars. We'll even sell bats and crowbars to kids! We encourage kids to learn how to use baseball bats! What are we thinking?
                    I saw that too. One teacher dead, several others injured. Of course, the narrative is that gun control prevented more people from getting killed. The problem is, that can't be proven.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RoyalShock View Post
                      I saw that too. One teacher dead, several others injured. Of course, the narrative is that gun control prevented more people from getting killed. The problem is, that can't be proven.
                      The single largest mass killing inside a US school involved no guns. Not one. Regardless of school security, SRO's and metal detectors, that massacre could easily be duplicated today. And as before,vwithout a shot being fired.
                      There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese.

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                      • #12
                        Which one was that MVJ?
                        In the fast lane

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by tropicalshox View Post
                          Which one was that MVJ?
                          Bath School Disaster in the 1920's. Dude blew up a school. He used a gun to detonate explosives in his truck committing suicide, but no guns were used to blow up the school.
                          There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            For standing pistol positions, learning to "press" and not jerk the trigger, focusing on the front sight, and following through your shot are important. Get those things right and the rest will sort of fall into place. So yes, gun control is really important for squeezing off accurate rounds. I'm all for practicing gun control as often as possible!
                            Auf geht's Shockers, Shieß on tooor!
                            Sheiß on tOOOOr ...
                            Sheiß on toooOOOOoooor!

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kung Wu View Post
                              For standing pistol positions, learning to "press" and not jerk the trigger, focusing on the front sight, and following through your shot are important. Get those things right and the rest will sort of fall into place. So yes, gun control is really important for squeezing off accurate rounds. I'm all for practicing gun control as often as possible!
                              You pull with the tip of your finger, not at the first joint. You relax.

                              No big deal.
                              There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese.

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