Sanders - Hit Everybody

[SHOCKvalue]

Why is it a contradiction? Democracy and socialism (political scheme and economic scheme) are apples and oranges. Why do they inherently contradict?

Really? One emphasizes the power of the individual, the other the power of the plurality.

[Play Angry]

God Bless you. I don't know anyone that isn't against those things.

Really? I need your friends I guess. Half the republicans I know are on team Trump and most of my democrat friends are pulling for Bernie.

Funny thing is, those same republicans actually think Trump is super far right on economics and just kinda shrug like imbeciles if you ask them about free trade, tariffs, or anything else beyond corporate and personal income tax rates.

[jdshock]

Really? One emphasizes the power of the individual, the other the power of the plurality.

That's a fair point, albeit in different arenas: one political and one economic. I see your view, though.

[SHOCKvalue]

Really? I need your friends I guess. Half the republicans I know are on team Trump and most of my democrat friends are pulling for Bernie.

Funny thing is, those same republicans actually think Trump is super far right on economics and just kinda shrug like imbeciles if you ask them about free trade, tariffs, or anything else beyond corporate and personal income tax rates.

Everyone who has ever held the office of President of the United States is a shrugger at the core when it comes to answering the difficult and complicated questions. They all have, and have had, advisors for that. Sad but true; they're not savants, in general. The key is to elect someone who can surround himself with the proper people, and who has the critical thinking skills to choose the right avenue presented before them.

This is not to defend Trump. Lol... no, nope.

[pinstripers]

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[shocka khan]

You address a lot of things here......not one of them seems to be addressing my point.

SAYS WHO?

You? kc? Some dumbass random college professional student that gets high every day?

WHO?

Do you get my point yet?

You want to talk about who is doing little for the national economy...how about the Government? That's what's wrong with capitalism....big government!

You bring up some valid concerns. Let's figure out how to win again. And yes, we are rewarding the wrong people and behavior....they are people that refuse to work, habitual child creators on welfare, drug users etc etc. Not people that work for a living.

I'm sure they exist, but I haven't found too many hard working, honest people that haven't been rewarded for their work.

You might think they deserve more....I might think they deserve less...but unless it's YOUR money or MY money, it doesn't seem to be our business, capisce?

So what is your point, Doc?

In my mind, neither socialism nor libertarianism are long-term functional governments. Socialism protects the many, but also allows the many to sit on their butts and collect free money. Libertarianism, while holding forth the promise of smaller, more effective government, does not work primarily because there are segments of our economy that quite frankly need to be regulated to protect the average consumer, our environment and so forth (note that there are many flavors of libertarianism. Some have a short list and some a longer list).

Libertarianism will not work because corporate interests and corporations are not guided by some 'magic hand' like Adam Smith used to say. Tom Delay wanted to get rid of the EPA, for example, because he did not think that DDT was a problem. Funny thing about that one, DDT was a huge problem. It almost caused the bald eagle to go extinct. The bald eagle, that symbol that the conservatives like to wrap themselves up in (like the flag).

So a guy who loves our national bird as a patriotic symbol was pushing for policy that would have caused same bird to go extinct (the eagles were eating little animals who picked up the DDT by eating other animals and bugs. The DDT in the eagle's tissues wreaked havoc with the females when they laid eggs - most of them were so thin they broke instead of hatching - reference Rachel Carson's Silent Spring).

My evidence: Once DDT was banned and the pesticide finally broke down, the egg shells got thicker, more hatchlings survived and the bald eagle made a comeback.

PS: Fox news appears to disagree with me, but they are like a broken clock - correct twice a day, but only for a short time.

Companies didn't want to stop making or using DDT. It was cheap and effective (but because of its chemical structure, it took years to break down). Companies made money on it. When companies make lots of money, they get lazy. It's fun and profitable to push the easy button.

[Play Angry]

Everyone who has ever held the office of President of the United States is a shrugger at the core when it comes to answering the difficult and complicated questions. They all have, and have had, advisors for that. Sad but true; they're not savants, in general. The key is to elect someone who can surround himself with the proper people, and who has the critical thinking skills to choose the right avenue presented before them.

This is not to defend Trump. Lol... no, nope.

Complete change of the direction I was going with that, but sure, I agree. The only genuinely qualified president we've had since Nixon was the elder Bush, whose economic and judicial advisors sucked and it killed his legacy.

[shocka khan]

Complete change of the direction I was going with that, but sure, I agree. The only genuinely qualified president we've had since Nixon was the elder Bush, whose economic and judicial advisors sucked and it killed his legacy.

I would prefer to say Bush's legacy was killed by Ronald Reagan's unsustainable tax cuts. Reagan cut spending too much. Either services would need to be reduced or taxes raised (or some combination).

Reagan was one of the biggest deficit producers during his terms. But the huge amount of spending he stood watch over did accomplish one good thing - it bankrupted the Soviet Union and effectively removed them as a threat for a long time.

[WuDrWu]

So what is your point, Doc?

In my mind, neither socialism nor libertarianism are long-term functional governments. Socialism protects the many, but also allows the many to sit on their butts and collect free money. Libertarianism, while holding forth the promise of smaller, more effective government, does not work primarily because there are segments of our economy that quite frankly need to be regulated to protect the average consumer, our environment and so forth (note that there are many flavors of libertarianism. Some have a short list and some a longer list).

Libertarianism will not work because corporate interests and corporations are not guided by some 'magic hand' like Adam Smith used to say. Tom Delay wanted to get rid of the EPA, for example, because he did not think that DDT was a problem. Funny thing about that one, DDT was a huge problem. It almost caused the bald eagle to go extinct. The bald eagle, that symbol that the conservatives like to wrap themselves up in (like the flag).

So a guy who loves our national bird as a patriotic symbol was pushing for policy that would have caused same bird to go extinct (the eagles were eating little animals who picked up the DDT by eating other animals and bugs. The DDT in the eagle's tissues wreaked havoc with the females when they laid eggs - most of them were so thin they broke instead of hatching - reference Rachel Carson's Silent Spring).

My evidence: Once DDT was banned and the pesticide finally broke down, the egg shells got thicker, more hatchlings survived and the bald eagle made a comeback.

PS: Fox news appears to disagree with me, but they are like a broken clock - correct twice a day, but only for a short time.

Companies didn't want to stop making or using DDT. It was cheap and effective (but because of its chemical structure, it took years to break down). Companies made money on it. When companies make lots of money, they get lazy. It's fun and profitable to push the easy button.

Umm...DDT....that's been banned for the last 44ish years? By the way, not only did it (in your eyes) nearly extinct the bald eagle, it was a huge help in battling malaria and typhus. Definitely we should have watching millions of our citizens die to save an eagle. I can't even discuss reasonable alternatives with someone who is SO shortsighted. It makes no sense.

[shocka khan]

Umm...DDT....that's been banned for the last 44ish years? By the way, not only did it (in your eyes) nearly extinct the bald eagle, it was a huge help in battling malaria and typhus. Definitely we should have watching millions of our citizens die to save an eagle. I can't even discuss reasonable alternatives with someone who is SO shortsighted. It makes no sense.

Doc, tell me how DDT 'saved millions of citizens (Americans)'. Usually, your answers are intelligent and thought out, but I think you've slipped a cog today.

In other countries perhaps, but not here.

As with all decisions of this type, the risk of taking an action must be balanced against the effects taking that action will cause.

Brazil has a problem with malaria and typhus. For them, it was an easy decision not to ban DDT.

For America, totally different.

Also keep in mind that corporations are loathe enough to spend money to actually solve a problem (actual R&D) as opposed to hitting the easy button. Declaring DDT to be harmful forced companies to engineer a more environmentally-friendly solution to the problem.

We have the smartest people in the world in this country. Unfortunately, all too often our corporate masters are more interested in the short-term (easy button) solutions than the one that will actually provide the most benefit in the long run.

And if they don't, there's always the corporate raider coming along behind them kvetching about returns and 'unlocking' profits.

[shocka khan]

And Doc, I'd still like to hear you explain to me the point I missed. I enjoy reading your perspective.

[shocka khan]

Interestingly enough and right on cue, here's information about HCL, Cognizant (sorry I had earlier identified Tata Consultancy as the transgressor) and Disney. People are filing suits, the legal theory they are using are the H1B visas are not 'supposed' to be used to displace American jobs. Disney thinks the lawsuit is ridiculous.

I hope the people who lost their jobs win and win big. Yet another example of what I was speaking to earlier.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/26/us/lawsuit-claims-disney-colluded-to-replace-us-workers-with-immigrants.html?_r=0

[SHOCKvalue]

Interestingly enough and right on cue, here's information about HCL, Cognizant (sorry I had earlier identified Tata Consultancy as the transgressor) and Disney. People are filing suits, the legal theory they are using are the H1B visas are not 'supposed' to be used to displace American jobs. Disney thinks the lawsuit is ridiculous.

I hope the people who lost their jobs win and win big. Yet another example of what I was speaking to earlier.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/26/us...ants.html?_r=0

Just reading that makes one mad. This from Disney, a company that most definitely lives on the political left. Not saying that a company on the right hasn't possibly done the same thing, but to point out that crony capitalism is blind to the colors of blue and red.

[shocka khan]

Just reading that makes one mad. This from Disney, a company that most definitely lives on the political left. Not saying that a company on the right hasn't possibly done the same thing, but to point out that crony capitalism is blind to the colors of blue and red.

True dat. It's not so much as whether the company culture is left or right (because there are banks and insurance companies doing pretty much the same things, except they outright outsource), it's the fact that they are bloated multi-national pigs that the government throws dollars at (through the import/export bank).

The only thing they do well is return money to shareholders. Other than that, they're vultures. Selling 'American' products which are serviced in foreign countries (who needs a trade deal when they can do that!).

[MoValley John]

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