LIbya Ambassador and 3 Other Killed

[pinstripers]

In the 1940's, many German citizens were not members of the Nazi party. So what?

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

Might be because those radical elements are the norm, not the exception.

...nevermind any arguments and evidence to the contrary. Because those are all wrong. Especially because one guy quoted in an article says so.

I can see that with all the car bombings, honor killings and suicide bombers blowing up busses and resturants that we have in the States.

Nope. It's the theater shootings, and the school shootings, and the fact practically no one in our inner cities can walk around safely at night, and the fact the violent crime rate in the US is higher than most other developed countries. THAT is why in many other parts of the world, the US is seen as a very violent country.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

In the 1940's, many German citizens were not members of the Nazi party. So what?

So maybe we should rightfully pin the atrocities of the Nazi regime on Hitler and his henchmen, and those who willfully carried out the worst of his policies, not on the entire German people, many of whom didn't even know the Holocaust was happening? It's a crazy thought, I know. I should instead blame an entire country's population for the deeds of one insane madman and a group of insane madmen around him. Because, yes, that's awesome.

[SB Shock]

This goverment report would dispute your claims

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0347.htm

[SB Shock]

So maybe we should rightfully pin the atrocities of the Nazi regime on Hitler and his henchmen, and those who willfully carried out the worst of his policies, not on the entire German people, many of whom didn't even know the Holocaust was happening? It's a crazy thought, I know. I should instead blame an entire country's population for the deeds of one insane madman and a group of insane madmen around him. Because, yes, that's awesome.

Do you even study history or geo-politcs? The German people knew what was going on. Most turned their backs on it or approved. There were some Germans who did have the courage to move against the hitler and the German government. There are some very good books on the subject.

[_kai_]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

This goverment report would dispute your claims

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0347.htm

Do you actually read the links you post? This database shows that based on 2002 crime rates, the US ranks 17th (that's SEVENTEENTH) out of 50. That means 33--count 'em, thirty three--countries have lower rates than we do--and that's just the countries on this list. If you think being ranked 17 out of 50 disputes my claim that we have a high crime rate compared to other developed countries, well, no wonder we don't see eye to eye on a lot of things. "Nevermind those 33 countries that have lower rates, we're at least safer than 16!!" LOL, Good Lord.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

Do you even study history or geo-politcs? The German people knew what was going on. Most turned their backs on it or approved. There were some Germans who did have the courage to move against the hitler and the German government. There are some very good books on the subject.

I'm sure you enjoy history, but I wonder what books you've been reading. Maybe been watching late night History Channel conspiracy shows or something? The German people knew the Jews were being rounded up and sent to camps, I'm not disputing that. But the genocide going on in those camps (ie the "holocaust") was not widespread knowledge at that time--even to the German people. Even many Jews had no idea what their fate would be--many thought they were being sent to the camps to be relocated. By and large, the Nazis did a good job of keeping the genocide on the DL. The extermination camps (not to be confused with the concentration camps) were staffed with SS officers and special guards, not regular German soldiers, to help keep the goings on under wraps. Some reports made it to the resistance and the allies towards the middle of the war, but many of those who heard this news didn't believe it, so these reports spread very slowly through German occupied territory. It wasn't until near the end of the war, when Allied forces started discovering the extermination camps, that the existence and extent of the Holocaust was known to even Germans.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

That's hilarious. Guilty as charged...

[Ixiah]

I'm sure you enjoy history, but I wonder what books you've been reading. Maybe been watching late night History Channel conspiracy shows or something? The German people knew the Jews were being rounded up and sent to camps, I'm not disputing that. But the genocide going on in those camps (ie the "holocaust") was not widespread knowledge at that time--even to the German people. Even many Jews had no idea what their fate would be--many thought they were being sent to the camps to be relocated. By and large, the Nazis did a good job of keeping the genocide on the DL. The extermination camps (not to be confused with the concentration camps) were staffed with SS officers and special guards, not regular German soldiers, to help keep the goings on under wraps. Some reports made it to the resistance and the allies towards the middle of the war, but many of those who heard this news didn't believe it, so these reports spread very slowly through German occupied territory. It wasn't until near the end of the war, when Allied forces started discovering the extermination camps, that the existence and extent of the Holocaust was known to even Germans.

A study by a researcher would disagree with you on the ignorance of the Germans.

They knew that Adolf Hitler had repeatedly forecast the extermination of every Jew on German soil. They knew these details because they had read about them. They knew because the camps and the measures which led up to them had been prominently and proudly reported step by step in thousands of officially-inspired German media articles.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard

Personally, I think a large portion of the populace knew or at least suspected something was happening. While the death camps were all outside of Germany there is always talk. Also, it was public knowledge that the government was intentionally killing people. Tens of thousands were killed at the Bernberg Euthanasia Center alone.

It is debated whether it was the numerous public protests of senior clergymen and other dignitaries, who made the programme public knowledge,or a fear of disruptive action by other countries that resulted in the order to officially call off the Euthanasia Programme - the so-called "Euthanasia Stop". The historian, Uwe Dietrich Adam, also posed the question early on as to whether the programme was halted because its euthanasia specialists were urgently needed in the extermination camps to where they were soon deployed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernburg_Euthanasia_Centre

RockyMountainShock, the problem I have with your argument about how "radicals" should not present the face of Islam is that the moderates of Islam are also intolerant of other faiths. If you look at the countries that have >50% populace who practice the Islamic faith you will notice that the restrictions for other religions is quite burdensome or banned entirely. These countries are rich and poor, landlocked and have access to the sea, and of many different races. The only thing they have in common is their religion which puts heavy burdens on other faiths. "Moderates" allow others to practice their faith without restrictions - how can you claim their are so many moderates in Islam when their is not a single country you can point to?

[SB Shock]

I'm sure you enjoy history, but I wonder what books you've been reading. Maybe been watching late night History Channel conspiracy shows or something?

Here is just a few I pulled off of my shelf. No conspiracy stuff there.

Capture.jpg

The German people knew the Jews were being rounded up and sent to camps, I'm not disputing that. But the genocide going on in those camps (ie the "holocaust") was not widespread knowledge at that time--even to the German people.

You do not carry out the systematic "final solution" without the full participation of the SS, german government, Nazi party officials, rail road workers, doctors, soldiers. In Buchenwald, there was business that had operations inside the camp (using the prisoners as slave labor). The concentration camps were located near population centers. U.S. troop reported the smell from these camps to be horrific from mile around.

You might want to read about Bonhoeffer. His resistance started in the late 1930's. He was one of the few church leaders who would stand up for rightenous and not turn his back. Holocaust survivors story talk about their ear of being sent to Auschwitz because it meant death - so please don't continue to propagate the holocaust denier myth that the German people didn't know. Just our own example of Abu Graib just shows how information will get out eventually. The Germans had 20,000 camps - the germans knew, of course they didn't want to admit it, but they knew.

Even many Jews had no idea what their fate would be--many thought they were being sent to the camps to be relocated. By and large, the Nazis did a good job of keeping the genocide on the DL.

Another myth of ignorance. The jews carried out resistance in every European country. Maybe you didn't hear about the Warsaw ghetto uprising - this occurred when rumors where the Germans were getting ready to send them to Treblinka. Ghettos across europe rose up in pretty much unarmed resistance because information had spread that the germans were deporting them to killing center. Then there was armed resistance - the U.S. Holocaust museum estimates that 20,000 to 30,000 jews fought against the Nazi in resistance groups.

The extermination camps (not to be confused with the concentration camps)

So you are telling me the Buchenwald Concentration Camp was not used to exterminate Jews? I have actually been to Buchenwald and saw the ovens, the operating rooms, the chemical showers - 50,000 to 60,000 jews and political prisoners were exterminated in this concentration camp that was also a slave labor camp.

were staffed with SS officers and special guards, not regular German soldiers, to help keep the goings on under wraps. Some reports made it to the resistance and the allies towards the middle of the war, but many of those who heard this news didn't believe it, so these reports spread very slowly through German occupied territory. It wasn't until near the end of the war, when Allied forces started discovering the extermination camps, that the existence and extent of the Holocaust was known to even Germans.

Please.

Gerhart Riegner in Switzerland passed on to the U.S. state department the NAZI plan for exterminating jews. In December of 1942, the U.S., Britain and other allied governments announced they know of the plans to conduct an "Extermination Campaign". So there is another one of your myths shot down.

[Capitol Shock II]

Rocky, not to be disrespectful but where do you get your information from?

[pinstripers]

I agree, the German population as a whole had no knowledge.

[1979Shocker]

It's not hard to believe they didn't know anything. Look at all the experiments the U.S. government has done on its own citizens and we didn't know anything about them.

[MoValley John]

I don't know how my reply fits in with this thread, or how Godwin's Law has anything to do with my interjection, but I must add that the US faked landing on the moon several times and 80% of the citizenry believes we were there.

So how do you like them apples?


On a serious note, it is really, painfully disappointing that people actually believe the bombing had anything to do with a movie clip posted on YouTube. I often really worry about the future Of America.