Defunding/Abolishing Police

[wufan]

The sound of a siren - the mere knowledge that "I've just called the cops", has stopped more assaults/burglaries than could ever be counted. To judge the effectiveness of law enforcement based on their response time is child-like thinking.

If you want to mitigate the response time risk, then sharpen up your situational awareness skills, pick up a potent stun gun, and go over scenarios in your head on how and when you will use it.

It’s estimated (and if you can provide better numbers, please do) that police stop 50-100 thousand assaults from occurring annually in the US.

It is known that armed citizens stop at least 200 thousand assaults annually by injury/death and utilize a firearm in self-defense in an incident that does not lead to an injury 2 million times per year.

[Shockm]

This is nonsensical and totally misses my point.

If I am being carjacked or robbed, I will likely lose my car or my possessions. If I survive the encounter I will call the police. They will take my statement and if it was my car, it will likely be recovered in an unrepairable state. My wallet will statistically not be returned. What good have the police done in this case that couldn’t be handled by my insurance or credit card company?

In the case of rape or home invasion, somebody is going to die…either the criminal or me and my family. What good do the police do me in that instance? They will investigate and maybe the next person is spared via an arrest if I didn’t get the job done myself. Even if no one dies…they got the jump on me or I’m not home, the damage is done, they leave and I’m still a victim.

The police do not protect you. It’s time to stop pretending they do.

I would take your comments to mean you are in the defunding police camp, and having citizens handle criminal activity. I’m not with you on that, but do admit that fear and deterrence of breaking the laws and the lack of concern that kid and adult criminals have pertaining to consequences, jail time, and prison that used to be a part of life is diminishing each year, while gang and criminal activity is growing to younger children each year.

[C0|dB|00ded]

It’s estimated (and if you can provide better numbers, please do) that police stop 50-100 thousand assaults from occurring annually in the US.

It is known that armed citizens stop at least 200 thousand assaults annually by injury/death and utilize a firearm in self-defense in an incident that does not lead to an injury 2 million times per year.

Your numbers are implausible.

Again, the very existence of an armed police force with authority to kill if necessary, stops an innumerable amount of violent acts. Hell, even I would have likely committed a few assaults over my lifetime had there been no threat of Po-Po.

Of course without law enforcement our courts are worthless as who will apprehend the suspects? Your argument explodes on lift-off.

[wufan]

I would take your comments to mean you are in the defunding police camp, and having citizens handle criminal activity. I’m not with you on that, but do admit that fear and deterrence of breaking the laws and the lack of concern that kid and adult criminals have pertaining to consequences, jail time, and prison that used to be a part of life is diminishing each year, while gang and criminal activity is growing to younger children each year.

I don’t understand what you are asking/saying.

What I said is pretty clear. Police do not protect people against crime in most instances, rather they come in later to take a report. I don’t consider that to be them keeping me safe. The things they are good at is traffic and drug enforcement, and I’m not a fan of that overall. I do see some benefit, but I think there are better solutions.

Police on patrol and stationed at high crime (violent or personal property) areas is a net good for sure.

I hope I’ve clarified my position so that if you have questions or responses, they will be in line with what I’ve stated.

[wufan]

Your numbers are implausible.

Again, the very existence of an armed police force with authority to kill if necessary, stops an innumerable amount of violent acts. Hell, even I would have likely committed a few assaults over my lifetime had there been no threat of Po-Po.

Of course without law enforcement our courts are worthless as who will apprehend the suspects? Your argument explodes on lift-off.

Well, I didn’t make up my numbers. They are refuted, which is why there is such a large range, but if you have better numbers I would be happy to look them over.

[MikeKennedyRulZ]

"For a conviction, the state had to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Potter handled her firearm “recklessly” and showed culpable negligence in her actions that resulted in Wright’s death."

If she shouldn't have had even a taser in her hand, having a gun in her hand was reckless handling. Had the victim had a gun or weapon or there been imminent danger, there would have been no reckless use of a firearm.

It is pure speculation and opinion to say that she shouldn't have even used a taser in this situation. That would get blasted by a good defense attorney so quickly it wouldn't even and shouldn't be an issue in this trial. Directly meets the definition of speculation. For every expert who says she shouldn't you can find one who says she should.

[ShockTalk]

It is pure speculation and opinion to say that she shouldn't have even used a taser in this situation. That would get blasted by a good defense attorney so quickly it wouldn't even and shouldn't be an issue in this trial. Directly meets the definition of speculation. For every expert who says she shouldn't you can find one who says she should.

My understanding is that came out from that police department's regs based on that situation. It was not my speculation.

[SubGod22]

You sound anti-police or at least dismissive of the difficulty of their job.

What is your job?

Did you grow up with your father leaving home each day, and you never knew whether he would return home? I know children of law enforcement who have talked about the fears their mother faced when a shooting of a police officer went out over the air waves. Their mothers often listened on scanners during a dangerous shift. They often feared the worse. Not an easy family existence.

Why would crime ever go back down, now that criminals are making a decision on the risk vs. reward of crimes. Some of the “smash and grab” criminals make $1,000 a day.

If you get anit-police out of anything said here, you are reading with an agenda and not reading what is actually being said. Are they sometimes put in difficult situations? Sure. Are the majority at risk or put in all that difficult of situations? Not at all.

My job is irrelevant to the discussion. This is such a lame ass and common deflection of the point. Kind of like how some people say we can't comment on a coach and how they're doing their job if we've never coached at the collegiate or professional level. It's bullshit. Not being in a job doesn't mean you have no basis for comment or knowledge of the job and what it entails. And I have stated repeatedly that I have friends in law enforcement and have talked to a number of them on similar issues and we often agree, at least on the basic level of most things. My sister also worked for a PD for a number of years and I've gotten to hear a number of stances from that PD in regards to much of this.

Both of my parents served in the military. As did most of my uncles and a number of cousins as well as one grandparent. The other was denied for some medical reason. And as I have stated multiple times and you have never addressed, why are our military members held to such higher standards in actual combat situations than our police departments dealing with noncombat situations? You seem to think the police have the most dangerous job on the planet, yet statistics don't actually back that up. None of the officers I know have ever woken up and feared they weren't going to return home. I'm sure that may be a valid example though in a few parts of this country that are exceedingly violent, but those are the exceptions and not the rule. And even then, I'm guessing most don't actually feel that way.

Considering the arrest and conviction rate of real crimes is actually pretty low, I'm not sure the police are a great deterrent to most. The smash and grab BS is actually not on the police and instead on the local DAs who have publicly stated they won't pursue convictions and on woke city governments who have made it easy. As wufan has stated though, police generally don't prevent much crime but instead later investigate, maybe, and might eventually find someone.

The best way to prevent crime is to be armed. The police can show up later to take statements of what happened. Being armed does far more to prevent crime than the police do. And nobody is saying we shouldn't have laws, though we have too many BS laws that make criminals out of people who have never victimized a soul, or that they shouldn't be prosecuted.

What I am saying is that cops who break the law, their oath to the Constitution and the civil rights of the populace should be punished. This goes for both good and bad cops.

The bad cops need to stop being protected by departments. That will begin to repair the perception of police departments.

I don't see why any of these statements should be all that controversial and get people so defensive.

[Shockm]

If you get anit-police out of anything said here, you are reading with an agenda and not reading what is actually being said. Are they sometimes put in difficult situations? Sure. Are the majority at risk or put in all that difficult of situations? Not at all.

My job is irrelevant to the discussion. This is such a lame ass and common deflection of the point. Kind of like how some people say we can't comment on a coach and how they're doing their job if we've never coached at the collegiate or professional level. It's bullshit. Not being in a job doesn't mean you have no basis for comment or knowledge of the job and what it entails. And I have stated repeatedly that I have friends in law enforcement and have talked to a number of them on similar issues and we often agree, at least on the basic level of most things. My sister also worked for a PD for a number of years and I've gotten to hear a number of stances from that PD in regards to much of this.

Both of my parents served in the military. As did most of my uncles and a number of cousins as well as one grandparent. The other was denied for some medical reason. And as I have stated multiple times and you have never addressed, why are our military members held to such higher standards in actual combat situations than our police departments dealing with noncombat situations? You seem to think the police have the most dangerous job on the planet, yet statistics don't actually back that up. None of the officers I know have ever woken up and feared they weren't going to return home. I'm sure that may be a valid example though in a few parts of this country that are exceedingly violent, but those are the exceptions and not the rule. And even then, I'm guessing most don't actually feel that way.

Considering the arrest and conviction rate of real crimes is actually pretty low, I'm not sure the police are a great deterrent to most. The smash and grab BS is actually not on the police and instead on the local DAs who have publicly stated they won't pursue convictions and on woke city governments who have made it easy. As wufan has stated though, police generally don't prevent much crime but instead later investigate, maybe, and might eventually find someone.

The best way to prevent crime is to be armed. The police can show up later to take statements of what happened. Being armed does far more to prevent crime than the police do. And nobody is saying we shouldn't have laws, though we have too many BS laws that make criminals out of people who have never victimized a soul, or that they shouldn't be prosecuted.

What I am saying is that cops who break the law, their oath to the Constitution and the civil rights of the populace should be punished. This goes for both good and bad cops.

The bad cops need to stop being protected by departments. That will begin to repair the perception of police departments.

I don't see why any of these statements should be all that controversial and get people so defensive.

The second option that I mentioned above, to anti-police is your being dismissive of the tough job police do in difficult circumstances. The anti-police crowd, do their protesting, while many people who don't believe in policing, just are dismissive of them, and their necessary role in society.

There is a Native-American saying "Don't judge someone else until you've walked in their moccasins". Your statements are very judgmental toward police, and you say nothing about the many possible dangerous daily decisions that they have to make each day, when even a low level traffic stop could become dangerous. Very few jobs require this type of unknown, and I've had family members who are in this type of environment express to me, their daily anxieties (they don't express these concerns to just anyone).

The statement wasn't actually directed just toward you, and I may not have been clear, but the basic idea, I was trying to express is that as "cultural morality" digresses, a dangerous world will continue to become more dangerous. This didn't happen over night. It's been happening for at least 50 years, but in the 90's, there were efforts to put the "bad guys" behind bars. Now, the world seems to be afraid or less willing to do that (thus most of the parolees and criminals who were released early because of Covid were placed in Wichita, instead of K.C. and surrounding areas to Wichita). If car jackings, car theft, and breaking car windows to steal things begins to happen more in Augusta, I doubt that your gun will solve the problem, because the "bad guys" are just becoming more brazen. That's what is happening in Chicago, New York, Portland, L.A., Seattle, and Washington D.C., now in the good parts of town instead of just gangs doing their business in the South and West of Chicago.

I agree that there should be continued discussions to have good methods (which include due process) to get people who have records of using more force than necessary out of policing (I've seen that happen in Wichita, but it doesn't mean it happens enough). I just think that most police are good people who do their job well. Potter didn't have a history or reputation or using undue force, and she wasn't a "bad seed", but there is no doubt that there are a few cops who shouldn't be cops.


I

[wufan]

The second option that I mentioned above, to anti-police is your being dismissive of the tough job police do in difficult circumstances. The anti-police crowd, do their protesting, while many people who don't believe in policing, just are dismissive of them, and their necessary role in society.

There is a Native-American saying "Don't judge someone else until you've walked in their moccasins". Your statements are very judgmental toward police, and you say nothing about the many possible dangerous daily decisions that they have to make each day, when even a low level traffic stop could become dangerous. Very few jobs require this type of unknown, and I've had family members who are in this type of environment express to me, their daily anxieties (they don't express these concerns to just anyone).

The statement wasn't actually directed just toward you, and I may not have been clear, but the basic idea, I was trying to express is that as "cultural morality" digresses, a dangerous world will continue to become more dangerous. This didn't happen over night. It's been happening for at least 50 years, but in the 90's, there were efforts to put the "bad guys" behind bars. Now, the world seems to be afraid or less willing to do that (thus most of the parolees and criminals who were released early because of Covid were placed in Wichita, instead of K.C. and surrounding areas to Wichita). If car jackings, car theft, and breaking car windows to steal things begins to happen more in Augusta, I doubt that your gun will solve the problem, because the "bad guys" are just becoming more brazen. That's what is happening in Chicago, New York, Portland, L.A., Seattle, and Washington D.C., now in the good parts of town instead of just gangs doing their business in the South and West of Chicago.

I agree that there should be continued discussions to have good methods (which include due process) to get people who have records of using more force than necessary out of policing (I've seen that happen in Wichita, but it doesn't mean it happens enough). I just think that most police are good people who do their job well. Potter didn't have a history or reputation or using undue force, and she wasn't a "bad seed", but there is no doubt that there are a few cops who shouldn't be cops.


I

I take issue with what you are trying to express (as I’m sure you take issue with my views), which as stated reads, “I was trying to express is that as "cultural morality" digresses, a dangerous world will continue to become more dangerous.”

I don’t believe that laws should reflect morality nor do I believe that all morals are universally held. Any law that is enacted is a threat that if you don’t comply your rights will be violated by the nameless/faceless government; without regard to ANY moral principles.

Rights, OTOH DO reflect morality, and in this country, that morality is freedom. If (and in some circumstances when) the police enforce rights, that is the point at which the police are an overwhelming force of good.

If you prefer a country where moral law is enforced, I would look to Vatican City, Muslim countries, and communist countries and try and implement something similar here. Hopefully it is your morals which are adopted. If you value the freedom to choose your own morals, regardless of those of the majority, then I suggest looking to a country that uses the power of the state to enforce rights.

[wufan]

To address my thoughts on a couple more side points that have come up:

Do I respect an officer because he is an officer? No. A persons title does not entitle them to respect. There are good cops and bad cops, good doctors and bad doctors, good janitors and bad janitors. Their title has no significance to me in abilities let alone their worth. Respect is granted to individuals, not titles, but I am a person that will grant respect until it is lost, not only once it is earned.

Do I respect, police because their job is dangerous? No. There are many, many much more dangerous jobs, and frankly the danger of a job has zero reflection on the level of respect that should be graced upon it. Certainly an armed robber’s career is much more dangerous than an officer, yet certainly you wouldn’t expect me look up to such an individual?

Finally, should we defund the police? Yes, but probably not in the way you think I mean it. First of all, why do we have 8 federal police forces? Eight? I think one simple thing to do would be to replace ICE with the military already stationed in the US. Other examples available upon request. As to local law enforcement, couldn’t we just install traffic cameras that sent you a ticket in the mail? There’s two ways I would defund police.

[WstateU]

[wufan]

That was avoidable by the citizen in so many ways!

[Shockm]

That was avoidable by the citizen in so many ways!

Before or after this?

"During that time, an officer noticed a gun pointing from a rear window of Johnson's vehicle, at which point he alerted other officers to the gun and pushed it "to the side as a round was fired," the press release states. He also alerted other officers that it was a "kid" who fired the weapon.
A preliminary investigation indicated that the 27-year-old instructed his child to shoot at officers, police said.
To have an adult think it is okay to encourage a [4]-year-old to pull a firearm and shoot at police illustrates how out of hand the campaign against police has gotten,"

What was shown was only a small portion of the police/citizen interactions. We didn't see what happened between the citizen having the gun pointed at the McDonald's employee, and the police interaction, but somehow the gun went to the back seat with the kid, and the interaction took place, and the gun was fired by the 4 year old.

My conclusion is to agree with Wufan that this scene was avoidable. No extreme anger at the bad McDonald's order, no gun, listen to police, just to name a few avoidable decisions. I guess the citizen would blame it on the McDonald's incompetence. Whatever, it shows how the extreme rage people are exhibiting, when they think someone disrespects them.

[Kung Wu]

That douchebag of a father needs to burn in jail for a long time for endangering the lives of the kids like he did.