Political Update

[WstateU]

I find it hard to believe that the three still running are the best this nation and either party has to offer.

You mean Larry, Curly and Moe? :D

[rayc]

jocoshock:
This talk of Reverend Wright is a sham.

The talk of Wright is not a sham, Wright is the sham.

You can no more justify his beliefs than those of David Dukes. They are both racists preaching hate. How each may have come by his belief is irrelevant to what they preach.

To overlook or condone what one of them says is to overlook/condone the other. If you are not willing to pass Dukes off as just a “crazy old uncle”, nor can you Wright.

[1979Shocker]

Just look at the rhetoric of Obama/Clinton and many Demcrat party leaders. They want to raise taxs which will make govt bigger.

It's true that they want to raise taxes, but only for the upper class. Where the middle class ends and the upper class starts, I have no idea. I did a quick search and found this article about Obama and taxes from last year.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sen. Barack Obama on Tuesday proposed overhauling the tax code to lower taxes for the poor and middle class, increase them for the rich and make it so most Americans can file their taxes in five minutes...

Read more at http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/...lan/index.html

I don't have any problem with that since I consider myself only middle class.

I think Clinton's tax plan is similar - lower taxes for the middle class and raise taxes for the upper class.

[kcshocker11]

On my first on-campus job interview in the fall of 1979 or spring of 1980, I interviewed with Garvey Industries, the Wichita based family owned agribusiness empire. A man came in and introduced himself as the president of Amortibanc, an GI subsidiary involved in Real Estate development. He then said, "come on in and I will introduce you to Mr. Garvey." Lo and behold there in all his splendor was Willard Garvey, the second generation head of GI, a man whose personal net worth had to be around $100 million. Dressed in a Shocker gold blazer, he proudly told me was a conservative Republican who did not believe in big government (this is just before the Reagan Revolution). In the very next breath, he proceded to tell me about the millions and tens of millions of dollars his companies (plural) made off government subsidies to agriculture, foreign aid, an numerous other forms of corporate welfare. He ended this elevator speech, by saying, "Hey, I don't make the rules, I just play by them."

It took several years for me to realize that any talk of big government vs. small, or self-reliance and personal responsibility on the part of conservatives is really that just talk. The reality is that EVERYONE in this country relies on the government in some form or another. Big government is only big when the money is not going into the hands of the party you support. When it's going into your pockets (Republican or Democrat) then hey! Your're not not making the rules, your're just playing by them. This was confirmed by a very good conservative repuclican friend of mine (and KU grad) when he said he lived by the Golden Rule (he who has the gold, makes the rules).

This talk of Reverend Wright is a sham. I am sure many of you feel the way you fee because of who you are and it doesn't fit your view of the world. The fact is that many conservative, evangelical ministers have said things just as outrageous (and they are on YouTube also). Whether a political candidate went to their church for 20 years or not, thousands of conservative, republican, causcasions attend those churches every Sunday. Do you not think this causes concern with people who may not share those views? Rob Parsley, who suports McCain accuses the federal government of practicing genocide on African Americans through Planned Parenthood, James Hagee has videos where he calls the Catholic Church, the great whore, and says Hitler justified the Holocaust by saying he wasn't doing anything the Catholic Church didn't do, he was just doing it quicker and with more passion (paraphrasing). And John McCain SOUGHT OUT HIS ENDORSEMENT.

Do you ever stop to think that other people regardless of skin color, race or ethnicity, might find those types of folks frightening, or question the Christianity or patriotism of people who support them?

For the record, I am a middle-aged, college educated, white, independent voter who does not subscribe to the ideology of either party. I did not become an Independent to hide from anything (as SFL or some other poster wrote). I did it because this country has been locked into some kind of all-or-nothing ideological meltdown for at least twenty years. I don't recognize Republicans or Democrats as having the values they used to stand for, which by the way, allowed for rational discussion and compromise on issues and values in order to get things done. I for one am FAR less scared of what Reverend Wright said than I am from people I hear on Talk Radio everyday.

I also find it interesting by the way that we, WSU graduates, are having this discussion on a forum dedicated to WSU basketball. Had it not been for big government, and the redistribution of wealth, courtesy of the State of Kansas, there would be no Wichita State University. The University of Wichita would likely have closed it's doors, and if so, where would all of us hard-working, working-class guys/gals have gotten our education? Just like Willard Garvey, we didn't make the rules, "we just played by them."

Well put Joco!

He who knows best knows how little he knows.
Thomas Jefferson


8) 8)

[ABC]

Just look at the rhetoric of Obama/Clinton and many Demcrat party leaders. They want to raise taxs which will make govt bigger.

It's true that they want to raise taxes, but only for the upper class. Where the middle class ends and the upper class starts, I have no idea. I did a quick search and found this article about Obama and taxes from last year.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sen. Barack Obama on Tuesday proposed overhauling the tax code to lower taxes for the poor and middle class, increase them for the rich and make it so most Americans can file their taxes in five minutes...

Read more at http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/...lan/index.html

I don't have any problem with that since I consider myself only middle class.

I think Clinton's tax plan is similar - lower taxes for the middle class and raise taxes for the upper class.

I think taxes should be lower for everyone - and everyone will benefit.

How will raising taxes for the "rich" help the country? And I hate this notion of class warfare. I acknowledge right-of-center folks play that game too.

Obama's plan will add more revenue to the Federal Govt., thus making it bigger. Bigger govt won't solve many problems.

FWIW, adding Kansas corp. income tax to the Federal income tax, taxes in the US are higher than much of Western Europe.

The bottom line is that the countries and states with the lowest tax burdens have the most economic growth.

The countires with the most economic freedom (less govt.) have longer lifespans, cleaner environment, cleaner water, and lower unemployment.

[1979Shocker]

Does anyone have an opinion about getting rid of the income tax and going to a consumption tax?

[dregn]

Does anyone have an opinion about getting rid of the income tax and going to a consumption tax?

I'm a fan of this type of tax. I think it would tax the well off at a higher amount since they consume more. I would be in favor of eliminating the tax for food and clothing, but by food I mean produce, grains, dairy, meats and not sugar foods and other unhealthy snacks and drinks.

[kcshocker11]

I have no problem with the Fed, and state inc tax but I do object to real estate and personal property tax on the same asset year after year.

Rem with a consumption tax it is far easier to raise it than to raise each individul tax. Think of the price of stamps over the years, though not a tax they just kept going up and up. It will be very difficult to prevent them from raising a single tax every few years.


Cauliflower is nothing but cabbage with a college education.
Mark Twain

[WuShockFan]

Obama's plan will add more revenue to the Federal Govt., thus making it bigger.

Sorry to break the news to you ABC, but the size of government has grown enormously under President Bush. He's grown the government more than Clinton ever did! Bush didn't do it by raising taxes. No, what he did was far worse. He continued to spend irresponsibly, without raising taxes, borrowing money to grow the size of government and passing the debt onto our children. Burdening our children with a lifetime of debt because of his irresponsibility.

At least the Democrats tell you the truth, that they might have to raise taxes to pay for some of the government programs. The Republicans keep cutting taxes, but they keep spending! They are growing the size of government just the same. They are just doing it by borrowing money from lenders (foreign banks) rather than getting it in the form of taxes from the American people. What the Bush people are doing, by spending the USA into deep, deep debt, is going to affect the economic status of the American people far more than would a little higher tax rate. It's just that the effects of this debt are going to occur sometime in the future, whereas higher taxes is something people will feel immediately.

[ABC]

Obama's plan will add more revenue to the Federal Govt., thus making it bigger.

Sorry to break the news to you ABC, but the size of government has grown enormously under President Bush. He's grown the government more than Clinton ever did! Bush didn't do it by raising taxes. No, what he did was far worse. He continued to spend irresponsibly, without raising taxes, borrowing money to grow the size of government and passing the debt onto our children. Burdening our children with a lifetime of debt because of his irresponsibility.

At least the Democrats tell you the truth, that they might have to raise taxes to pay for some of the government programs. The Republicans keep cutting taxes, but they keep spending! They are growing the size of government just the same. They are just doing it by borrowing money from lenders (foreign banks) rather than getting it in the form of taxes from the American people. What the Bush people are doing, by spending the USA into deep, deep debt, is going to affect the economic status of the American people far more than would a little higher tax rate. It's just that the effects of this debt are going to occur sometime in the future, whereas higher taxes is something people will feel immediately.

Please.

I hardly am defending Bush for the growth in govt. Bush and members of both parties are to blame.

For what it is worth, I believe the debt as a size of the total economy is the about the same as during Clinton.

Please don't tell me that "Bush people" are spending the USA into deep, deep debt.

Bush's admin, in concert with the Congress has spent way too much money. Bush, however, did cut taxes, for everyone.

There is little disagreement among economists that cutting taxes helps the economy.

Democrats have been in power for awhile now and I don't believe they've offered any budget cuts.

Both parties are to blame. Let me repeat. The Republicans are the party of big govt. The Democrats are the party of bigger govt.

FWIW, historical data indicates the Federal budget growth is the smallest when the President is a different party than Congress.

During some of Eisnhower's years when Dems controlled Congress, the Federal budget actually decreased. I believe that is the last time that happened.

[kcshocker11]

Might as well throw some fuel on the fire! Heres some from that liberal pub the Wall Street Journal. :D

Please read all 3 pages!

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10385678/1/no-wonder-business-is-backing-dems.html

You measure a democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.
Abbie Hoffman


8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) :goshocks:

[Awesome Sauce Malone]

Please provide a link to an evangelical preacher saying anything even approaching what Rev. Wright said. "G** Damn America."
.

Mr Wright didnt say *** **** America in the context that Fox News was spreading it.

[SubGod22]

Mr. Wright is still an idiot

[WuDrWu]

I don't know what could possibly be worse than what he actually did say.....



"God Bless America? Nooooo, *** **** America!"



I really think those words speak for themselves.


And Obama is still standing beside the guy. He says it's like taking the 5 dumbest things you've said in your entire life and playing them in a 30 second loop over and over...."


I've said some really stupid things in my life, most of the time off the cuff and in angry response to something equally stupid. If I ever said something half as stupid as Rev. Wright said, with forethought, my own parents would never speak to me again.


I am STUNNED that more than 20% of the country is still considering this man for Commander in Chief.

[Ixiah]

If anyone is interested - here is what I think caused the current mortgage crisis (or made an ordinary market correction far more serious):

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_44/b4056080.htm