WBB - Shocker Hall of Fame Members & Candidates

[1972Shocker]

With Lisa Hodgson's induction into the Shocker Hall of Fame this year I thought I would look at what Shocker Women basketball players are in the HOF and look at the stats of those players and other top Shocker players who are not in the Hall of Fame. It is always difficult to compare players of different eras but what I have done is totaled the career points scored, rebounds, assists, steals and blocked shots to come up with a HOF score for each of these players. Granted stats don't always tell the whole story but it gives some data on which to compare players.

Currently, there are by my count 5 women basketball players in the Shocker Hall of Fame as follows together with the years they played and their HOF score (adjusted to a per game average) per above:

1975-1977 Marguerite Keeley - I have no score for Marguerite because her stats for her two years at WSU are not available and because she only played two years she doesn't show up in the career records listings. Marguerite was a transfer from Independence C.C. She is still 2nd on the single season scoring totals with 605 points her senior year and she still holds the single season scoring average at 22.4 PPG and the single season rebounding average of 15.5 RPG set over 17 games in her junior year. She shot 60.5% from the field her senior year topped only by the 64.7% FG shooting by fellow Hall of Famer, Jennifer Kaczka in 1988-99 season. Marguerite also lettered in tennis and softball while at WSU. She went on to play professionally in the WPBL and was an All-Star averaging 17.6 PPG as pro. So I think it is clear Marguerite is a very worthy Hall of Fame member despite only playing two years as a Shocker.

In her two years as a Shocker covering 44 games Marguerite Keeley scored 914 points (20.8 PPG) and 550 rebounds (12.5 RPG). I have been unable to find any other stats for her for assists, blocks or steals. However, she averaged 33.27 per game just in combined points and rebounds.

The other 4 members of the Hall were all 4 year players as follows:

2000-04 Angela Buckner (2,956/107 Games = 27.63/Game)
1982-86 Allison Daniel (2,817/110 Games = 25.61/Game)
1998-02 Jennifer Kaczka (2,798/114 Games = 24.54/Game)
1980-84 Lisa Hodgson (2,288/112 Games = 20.43/Game)

[1972Shocker]

As you can see Lisa Hodgson, while having a very solid HOF score (again points+rebounds+assists+steals+blocked shots), was noticeably short of the previous members of the Hall of Fame. The following is a list of former Shocker players who also had strong 4-year careers listed in order of HOF score:


1992-96 Kim Evans (2,632/110 = 23.93)
1977-81 Terry O'Bryon (2,583/109 = 23.70)
1996-00 Lateesha Hill (2,686/114 = 23.56)
2004-08 Kiki Stephens (2,509/115 = 21.82)
1991-95 Ann Hollingsworth (2,314/111 = 20.85)
1979-83 Theresa Dreiling (2,350/114 = 20.61)
2003-07 Antionette Wells (2,239/110 = 20.35)
1993-97 Tootie Shaw (2,176/111 = 19.60)
2009-13 Jessica Diamond (2,421/130 = 18.62)
2008-12 Haleigh Lankster (2,280/126 = 18.10)

As you can see there are 6 players with higher per game HOF scores (admittedly somewhat arbitrarily contrived on my part) than Lisa Hodgson. I'm not necessarily suggesting that Lisa is not worthy (more on that later), but it does make you wonder how critically they are looking at the nominations and actually comparing them to other worthy candidates. Was Lisa helped by the fact that her father is a member of the Shocker Hall of Fame unconsciously or otherwise? Maybe, maybe not. I would note that Lisa's career overlapped that of Shocker career scoring leader Allison Daniel for two years so the HOF points may have been a little bit more distributed than in other cases. Also Lisa was a 2-time MVC 1st Team All-Conference selection.

After looking at this data I would probably limit Hall of Famers to those with per game HOF scores of 22 or better although where you draw the line is certainly something that would require more thought and discussion. Maybe you ignore everyone's freshman year and make the calculation over their last 3 years. In any case I think the HOF should be somewhat of an exclusive club.

That would give us 7 Hall of Famers over 40 years that meet that criteria plus Lisa Hodgson That is about 1 every 5 years on average.

[1972Shocker]

All of this kind of leads me to the real point of all of this. Do we have a Ms. 3000 in our future?

I've attempted to project where Alex Harden's career numbers might end up and I came up with the following:

1,600 points + 650 rebounds + 500 assists +250 steals +120 blocked shots = 3,120

Think about those numbers for a minute and the kind of all-around player it takes to produce those numbers. In addition, Alex was arguably (IMHO clearly) the catalyst for the Shockers winning their first ever MVC Regular Season and Tournament Championships last year and their first ever trip to the NCAA Tournament and the way this year is going she looks like she may want more. Furthermore, Alex was the Valley's Defensive POY last year and it looks like she is heading for a Valley POY honor this year (and probably next year as well).

The bottom line is we have a really nice team this year lead by a really special player. I wholeheartedly encourage Shocker fans to come out to Koch Arena and watch this team and this special player over the remainder of this season and through Alex's senior season next year. This team and Alex deserves our support and if we want to attract more Alex Harden's to WSU in the future a strong showing by Shocker fans would be very helpful.

Go Shocks!

[ShockTalk]

All of this kind of leads me to the real point of all of this. Do we have a Ms. 3000 in our future?

I've attempted to project where Alex Harden's career numbers might end up and I came up with the following:

1,600 points + 650 rebounds + 500 assists +250 steals +120 blocked shots = 3,120

Think about those numbers for a minute and the kind of all-around player it takes to produce those numbers. In addition, Alex was arguably (IMHO clearly) the catalyst for the Shockers winning their first ever MVC Regular Season and Tournament Championships last year and their first ever trip to the NCAA Tournament and the way this year is going she looks like she may want more. Furthermore, Alex was the Valley's Defensive POY last year and it looks like she is heading for a Valley POY honor this year (and probably next year as well).

The bottom line is we have a really nice team this year lead by a really special player. I wholeheartedly encourage Shocker fans to come out to Koch Arena and watch this team and this special player over the remainder of this season and through Alex's senior season next year. This team and Alex deserves our support and if we want to attract more Alex Harden's to WSU in the future a strong showing by Shocker fans would be very helpful.

Go Shocks!

Very good work @1972Shocker:.

I do have one comment, however. While you are using the same statistical items for all players, they don't come close to telling the whole story.

Example #1: Toure Murry holds the record for most assists in a career with 430 passing Warren Armstrong by 1 assist (a questionable 1 assist at that). However, Toure is not even in the same ballpark as Warren. Toure played 139 games (3.09 assists per game) while Warren played in only 78 games (5.5 assists per game). We sometimes put too much credit into totals. It's the same argument that is used against certain baseball players who got their numbers due to very long, but productive, careers. However, I give credit for a player being able to play that long productively. Unfortunately, that's not the case in college basketball and different eras. Today, they play more games in a season and, in the case of Armstrong, he was not allowed to play "varsity" as a freshman.

Example #2: High value on points over other aspects. The "points" themselves are tainted due to the 3 point shot. Using an example of WSU men again, how many points would Aubrey Sherrod have had if the 3 point shot had been available to him? How about when they moved the 3 point shot back further? In your examples, points could easily make up 50-70% of the total HOF points. An individual who is strong in all the other areas except scoring could be left off all together.

I know you qualified your methodology, but basically, I liked it. Perhaps some adjustments for games played, that's the easy one. The tough one is figuring out how to give a player that was a great assist/steals/leader, but not scorer credit over someone who scored a lot, but was mediocre otherwise.

[1972Shocker]

Perhaps some adjustments for games played, that's the easy one.

Good points. I've made the easy adjustment for games played.

That did not change the "rankings" for the current Hall of Fame members.

It did re-shuffle the deck for the other top players with Jessica Diamond and Haleigh Lankster taking the biggest hits.

I think Alex will play around 130 games in her career and that would project to a per game HOF score of 24.00.

In any case, I am looking forward to see what kind of numbers Alex will ultimately put up.

[ShockTalk]

Good points. I've made the easy adjustment for games played.

That did not change the "rankings" for the current Hall of Fame members.

It did re-shuffle the deck for the other top players with Jessica Diamond and Haleigh Lankster taking the biggest hits.

I think Alex will play around 130 games in her career and that would project to a per game HOF score of 24.00.

In any case, I am looking forward to see what kind of numbers Alex will ultimately put up.

I really didn't pay much attention to the women's game until the mid 90's, so I'm not as familiar with players before that time. Based on your revised numbers, I'm a little surprised that another player from the same time period as Hodgson isn't in the HOF. Terry O'Bryon would seem to have very strong numbers, much better than Lisa's.

I think the per game approach does hurt players, such as Diamond and Lankster, who played on better teams that were more balanced with other good players. While Angela Buckner was indeed a great player for WSU and a true joy to watch, her numbers would have probably suffered a little (just a little) with a better cast around her. To me, this really shows what a fantastic career Alex is having.

[1972Shocker]

I really didn't pay much attention to the women's game until the mid 90's, so I'm not as familiar with players before that time. Based on your revised numbers, I'm a little surprised that another player from the same time period as Hodgson isn't in the HOF. Terry O'Bryon would seem to have very strong numbers, much better than Lisa's.

I think the per game approach does hurt players, such as Diamond and Lankster, who played on better teams that were more balanced with other good players. While Angela Buckner was indeed a great player for WSU and a true joy to watch, her numbers would have probably suffered a little (just a little) with a better cast around her. To me, this really shows what a fantastic career Alex is having.

I'm in pretty much the same boat as you. Started paying attention to WBB around the mid-90's. The thing with Alex is she did not have a real big statistical year as a freshman. I don't think Alex was a high profile basketball recruit. I think she was a very good athlete, perhaps known more for her track & field exploits, than her basketball who Jody thought would fit her system and could be developed as a top-notch player. That has certainly proved to be the case.

Probably more than any other prominent Shocker women's BB player Alex's numbers are strong because of the all-around ability and not because she is necessarily outstanding in any one or two categories such as scoring &/or rebounding. Just like Cleanthony is a real match-up problem for most Valley teams, Alex as a 5-11 point guard is a real match-up problem as well.

Alex's HOF per game averages to date are as follows:

Freshman Year - 12.06
Sophomore Year - 22.94
Junior Year - 30.33 (Through 18 games)

Just for comparison's sake here are Angela Buckner's year-by-year HOF score averages plus Angela had some decent teammates during he time at WSU as noted:

Freshman Year: 30.15 (Jennifer Kaczka & Courtney Sims)
Sophomore Year: 25.38 (Jennifer Kaczka & Carlesa Dixon)
Junior Year: 30.36 (Carlesa Dixon & Raeven King)
Senior Year: 24.39 (Carlesa Dixon-Dennis & Antionette Wells)

Angela was just such a monster on the boards. A true ball-getter for sure.

[1972Shocker]

My methodology was pretty simple and relatively easy to accumulate. If you wanted to delve a little deeper and perhaps a little more substantively you could run and compare Prouty ratings if all the info needed is available. @1979Shocker: is a whiz at that and apparently has the template in place to run those.

[1972Shocker]

Now that the season is over, I thought I would take a look at Alex Harden's numbers and see were they might project to if she was to duplicate this year's stats during her senior season next year.

HOF Points = (Points + Rebounds + Assists + Blocked Shots + Steals)

Current HOF Points =2,208. Project HOF Points if Jr Year duplicated = 3,238. She would be the 1st Shocker ever to accumulate a total of 3,000 in these statistical categories. Angela Buckner currently has the highest total at 2,956.

Career Rankings in These Stats if Alex Duplicated Her Jr. Year Next Year:

Points - 1,709 (#1)
Rebounds - 673 (#7)
Assists - 487 (#1)
Steals - 246 (#3)
Blocks - 123 (#3)

A few other projected career stats for Alex:

GP - 133 (#1)

FTM - 397 (#2)
FTA - 493 (#3)
FT% - 80.5% (#3)

FGM - 634 (#3)
FGA - 1,333 (#6)
FG% - 47.6% (#14)

She won't rank very highly in 3 point attempts or makes but could be in the top 15-20 in 3 point FG% made.

Looking forward to seeing what kind of senior season Alex will deliver.

[1972Shocker]

In addition to the above stats Alex has lead her team to two consecutive MVC Regular Season Co-Championships and two consecutive MVC Tournament Championships (resulting in 2 trips to the NCAA Tournament) which were first-time achievements in Shocker WBB history.

Alex was the MOP in the past two Valley Tournaments and was the Valley Defensive POY in the last two years. How she was not selected as the Valley Player of the Year this year is still a huge mystery to me and a huge failure on the part of whoever voted for that award.

Hopefully, Alex will look to put a huge exclamation point on what has already been a stellar Shocker career with an outstanding senior season.

Go Alex! Go Shocks!

[oldtimewomen's hoopcoach]

In addition to the above stats Alex has lead her team to two consecutive MVC Regular Season Co-Championships and two consecutive MVC Tournament Championships (resulting in 2 trips to the NCAA Tournament) which were first-time achievements in Shocker WBB history.

Alex was the MOP in the past two Valley Tournaments and was the Valley Defensive POY in the last two years. How she was not selected as the Valley Player of the Year this year is still a huge mystery to me and a huge failure on the part of whoever voted for that award.

Hopefully, Alex will look to put a huge exclamation point on what has already been a stellar Shocker career with an outstanding senior season.

Go Alex! Go Shocks!

You don't need to sell me. She doesn't even need to duplicate those numbers, she is there. After watching Penn State vs. Stanford, I believe we could have played with Stanford as well. Most of the big time programs have bigs, very big in the middle. It's not that much of a factor if we are aggressive and attack them, which we didn't against Penn State, we must stop this perimeter game and focus on inside out. We must be a threat inside. Most bigs are slow and quickness usually trumps slow and big if we attack. Lots of time to figure it out. Quality size inside would be nice, but it isn't a must.

Note: I meant next month (April) not next week (This Week) on Kelsey's knee surgery. Haven't seen anything official on Asst. Coach DE, but I'm confident, wish her well unless she does a Kirk boomarang.

[1972Shocker]

I thought I would bump this thread back to the front page so I could track Alex Harden's march to be the 1st Shocker woman to accumulate a combination of points+rebounds+assists+steals+blocks totaling 3,000 in her career.

She enters her senior year with a total of 2,208 (1147+484+324+170+83) after putting up a total of 1,030 in her junior year putting her 14th all-time but poised to move up pretty rapidly.

All-time leader in this arbitrary metric is Angela Buckner came close to breaking the 3,000 barrier in her career with a 2,956 total.

Angela was primarily a scorer and rebounder while Alex is more of an all-around stat stuffer.

Good luck Alex. Hope you have a great senior year.

[oldtimewomen's hoopcoach]

I thought I would bump this thread back to the front page so I could track Alex Harden's march to be the 1st Shocker woman to accumulate a combination of points+rebounds+assists+steals+blocks totaling 3,000 in her career.

She enters her senior year with a total of 2,208 (1147+484+324+170+83) after putting up a total of 1,030 in her junior year putting her 14th all-time but poised to move up pretty rapidly.

All-time leader in this arbitrary metric is Angela Buckner came close to breaking the 3,000 barrier in her career with a 2,956 total.

Angela was primarily a scorer and rebounder while Alex is more of an all-around stat stuffer.

Good luck Alex. Hope you have a great senior year.

Great player who will have great stat lines, but cares more about winning, first and foremost. She needs to attack the rim, especially when going against larger players.

[1972Shocker]

When Harden graduates, WSU will lose the greatest player in program history.

Read more here: http://www.kansas.com/sports/college...#storylink=cpy

I'm not sure I am quite ready to make this declaration at this point like Taylor Eldridge did in his article. But I think by the end of this season there is a very high probability that I will.

I just love watching Alex play. She is clearly the most versatile player the Lady Shocks have ever had and she plays all phases of the game at a very high level and has a very high BBIQ.

The thing with Alex is she did not just show up at WSU as a finished product. She was an outstanding athlete, probably more acclaimed for her track and field exploits, than for her basketball and has developed into an outstanding basketball player as well as an outstanding student and representative of Shocker Nation.

I am really pulling for Alex to have a tremendous senior year.

[1972Shocker]

Alex vs Creighton: 28 points + 6 rebounds + 5 steals + 2 blocks + 0 assists = 41 total

Career-To-Date: 2,208 + 41 = 2,249 (Moves ahead of Antoinette Wells into 13th place all-time)