i have a feeling....

[1972Shocker]

Another interesting aside. Current OSU head coach Kurt Budke is a graduate of Washburn University.

Also, if I am reading his bio and Jim Littell's bio correctly it appears Budke's first paid coaching position was as an assistant Coach at Friends University in 1984. He took his first head coaching position at Allen County in 1991.

The head coach at Friends from 1984-1990 was none other than Jim Littell.

That explains why Jim was hired as the Associate Head Coach from day 1 at OSU.

Jim looks like a great candidate. However, I wonder if he might consider his Associate Head Coaching position at OSU a better job than the head coaching position at WSU.

[tgcshock]

Another interesting aside. Current OSU head coach Kurt Budke is a graduate of Washburn University. . .

Wow, if we hired him do you think the University of Wisconsin would sue us?

http://www.shockernet.net/sn/viewtopic.php?t=9589

[1972Shocker]

And I thought the Wisconsin mascot was named after a wild animal, the Badgers, but turns out they named their school after their lawyers!

[wxkid23]

I don't see how Jim can make a case for Jane after this year. It's not over yet but you can see the writing on the wall how this team is going to fare in the MVC.

She should have been canned after last year

It might be just a tad early to write the year off. You post would make perfect sense at the end of a bad season with no significant progress. (And you may very well have the chance to make that post!). But I don't see anyway to argue that a case cannot be made for a season that has not yet been played. If you are saying that only winning the Valley can save Jane's job then yes, the Shockers are not going to win the Valley. But, What if they finish third and the freshman class that has looked solid so far plays a big role in the success? Is there no case then?

I understand the frustration with the team's performances over the last few years but I am perfectly willing to let this season play out before saying that firing is absolutely the best answer. We are going to get beat tonight by a very good OSU team but then we will enter a stretch where we can develop the team against solid but not great competition before entering Valley play. ISU and Drake are very good but the rest of the Valley is up for grabs, IMO. I would take a 3rd-5th place finish as evidence that the team had exceeded expectations and was heading in the right direction. It wouldn't earn Jane a free pass but it would earn her another year in my estimation. And I suspect JS is likely to agree.

The season was over in my eyes when Jane was retained for this year. I used to love going to women's games but she has taken an average program and turned it into a horrible basketball product. If anyone wants to see how basketball should NOT be played go to a few womens games.

Maybe they come back and finish high in the Valley but I highly doubt it.

[1972Shocker]

The season was over in my eyes when Jane was retained for this year. I used to love going to women's games but she has taken an average program and turned it into a horrible basketball product. If anyone wants to see how basketball should NOT be played go to a few womens games.

Maybe they come back and finish high in the Valley but I highly doubt it.

Unfortunately for the Shocker's Women's BB program I don't think you are alone with those sentiments wxkid23.

Worse yet, is that you may very well be proven to correct in your assessment.

:(

[The Mad Hatter]

The season was over in my eyes when Jane was retained for this year. I used to love going to women's games but she has taken an average program and turned it into a horrible basketball product. If anyone wants to see how basketball should NOT be played go to a few womens games.

Maybe they come back and finish high in the Valley but I highly doubt it.

Unfortunately for the Shocker's Women's BB program I don't think you are alone with those sentiments wxkid23.

Worse yet, is that you may very well be proven to correct in your assessment.

:(

Whether or not it is a common or even turns out to be a correct sentiment, it does not change the fact that it is not a valid way to evaluate the season. You cannot have valid discussion or assessment of anything when someone has already drawn their conclusions before anything has happened. It is human nature to draw such conclusions, but it hurts valid argument.

It makes me think of a discussion I had with my father about his recent service on a jury. When sent to the jury room, many wanted to take an immediate vote before discussing anything, to see where people stood. My father successfully argued against doing this, because once you make a determination about an issue, human ego makes it very hard to give up on that position, even if the evidence points against it.

People will always notice the evidence that supports their position and ignore that which doesn't. This is precisely why it is important to try to delay making complete judgment on issues as long as possible, because committing oneself to a predetermined position slants everything that you see or say after that point.

[1972Shocker]

The season was over in my eyes when Jane was retained for this year. I used to love going to women's games but she has taken an average program and turned it into a horrible basketball product. If anyone wants to see how basketball should NOT be played go to a few womens games.

Maybe they come back and finish high in the Valley but I highly doubt it.

Unfortunately for the Shocker's Women's BB program I don't think you are alone with those sentiments wxkid23.

Worse yet, is that you may very well be proven to correct in your assessment.

:(

Whether or not it is a common or even turns out to be a correct sentiment, it does not change the fact that it is not a valid way to evaluate the season. You cannot have valid discussion or assessment of anything when someone has already drawn their conclusions before anything has happened. It is human nature to draw such conclusions, but it hurts valid argument.

It makes me think of a discussion I had with my father about his recent service on a jury. When sent to the jury room, many wanted to take an immediate vote before discussing anything, to see where people stood. My father successfully argued against doing this, because once you make a determination about an issue, human ego makes it very hard to give up on that position, even if the evidence points against it.

People will always notice the evidence that supports their position and ignore that which doesn't. This is precisely why it is important to try to delay making complete judgment on issues as long as possible, because committing oneself to a predetermined position slants everything that you see or say after that point.

All good points, but somewhat philosophical. Unfortunately it doesn't change the fact that there are more than a few Shocker fans that have written off this season before it started.

I can tell just from my section alone that a number of people who used to be regulars are no longer coming to the games.

The reasons for that could be many, but I'm quite sure some have given up on the Shocks under Coach Albright (rightly or wrongly).

[molly jabali]

hatter, i TOTALLY agree...if we are talking about a jury.we are talking about a BODY of work, over several years, which frankly is poor and getting worse. trust me, if it were the MEN'S program losing by 46 points, heads would roll pretty quickly.

food for thought....

[The Mad Hatter]

hatter, i TOTALLY agree...if we are talking about a jury.we are talking about a BODY of work, over several years, which frankly is poor and getting worse. trust me, if it were the MEN'S program losing by 46 points, heads would roll pretty quickly.

food for thought....

The reason that heads would roll for a 46 point loss in men's basketball is because:

1. The Valley is a strong conference for men's basketball, which it is not for women's. Losing to one of the best teams in the country by a very wide margin (and OSU is much better than their #25 ranking), does not mean that you can't be very competitive in conference in women's basketball. It would mean that your men's team can't be competitive.

2. The gap between the top teams and everyone else in women's basketball is much, much wider than in men's basketball. It is also rarer for road teams to win in women's ball than in men's. A 46 point road loss to a top team in women's is probably not a worse loss than the men's team loss to Monmouth on a neutral court. This is especially true since we were without two of our top guards (Kyrie and Whitney) going against one of the top backcourts in the country.

As to the question of which direction the program is heading, many exaggerations have been made. Two years ago, the team put together a good year that looked like the program was moving forward. Last year they went in the opposite direction. There is no established pattern yet.

The claim of a pattern of a downward spiral is exactly what I was talking about with presuppositions. Two years ago it looked like Jane might be turning things around, then there was last year's downturn. There were many who didn't like Jane to begin with and simply presupposed that last year was a trend. We still don't know that. If we have a good year in the Valley, that will make last year the exception, not the rule, over the last three seasons. Until we get into Valley play this year, we don't know whether last year was the start of a trend or an exception.

We have played the toughest non-con schedule of any team in the Valley so far, and have still put up some of the best defensive numbers in the conference. We have a talented freshman class, which will get even better next year with the eligibility of Val. Does this mean that the program is heading in the right direction? Who knows, but those who have predetermined that the program is moving backwards certainly won't leave room in their analysis for things like this.

It is simply too early to really know anything about a team (just look at the men's team last year). What we are seeing on the women's board is a reverse of what we saw on the men's board last year. A great start to a season coming off of a great season looks like a trend and people get over excited. Conference play proved that early optimism was unfounded. In the same way, coming off of a bad year, any struggles the women have will be seen as signs of another awful year, but in the same way, the conference schedule is what will determine whether the season was a success. The women may fail miserably, or they may finish in the top half. It is just too early to tell. You can shout me down, but people who questioned the men early last year got shouted down too.

[SubGod22]

As usual, TMH hits the nail on the head.

[molly jabali]

i hope you don't think i'm shouting you down, and i'm certainly not calling for jane to be axed in mid season...but, having said that(and, btw, you made some good thought provoking points), put me in the 'i'll be stunned with a turnaround' column...

and in one respect, you kind of make my point...3 years ago, osu was the laughing stock of the big 12...and look at them now...why CAN'T it be wsu?

[ictshockolate]

Lets see, we have had almost 5yrs of Jane and her way of running the program. Shes not going to turn it around and settling for a run of the mill program shouldnt be an option. I have seen many womens team win on the road, it just takes some talent and a good leader. You dont have to be a power house, their are plenty of women teams out there winning 18 to 20 games a yr. That means they are winning a good share on the road. Its tough in any sport, mens or women, to win on the road. But we need a new direction, new coach and putting it off thinking things will get better is just ridiculous. Nothing has improved, still turning the ball over a ton. No offense, and the strength of the team was suppose to be defense. But against good teams they just can't make stops. She hasn't brought in any outstanding talent since shes been here. I thought she was suppose to be a great recruiter and have that name recognition to land that big program changing recruite.

[The Mad Hatter]

Lets see, we have had almost 5yrs of Jane and her way of running the program. Shes not going to turn it around and settling for a run of the mill program shouldnt be an option. I have seen many womens team win on the road, it just takes some talent and a good leader. You dont have to be a power house, their are plenty of women teams out there winning 18 to 20 games a yr. That means they are winning a good share on the road. Its tough in any sport, mens or women, to win on the road. But we need a new direction, new coach and putting it off thinking things will get better is just ridiculous. Nothing has improved, still turning the ball over a ton. No offense, and the strength of the team was suppose to be defense. But against good teams they just can't make stops. She hasn't brought in any outstanding talent since shes been here. I thought she was suppose to be a great recruiter and have that name recognition to land that big program changing recruite.

1. Since WSU has never really been better than "run of the mill" in women's basketball, it seems odd to have huge expectations. I certainly have aspirations for better things, but that is different from expecting them. Plus, you have to differentiate "run of the mill" nationally vs. "run of the mill" in the Valley. The only two games we haven't been competitive in were against Top 25 teams. Certainly that makes us "run of the mill" nationally. The fact that we have been competitive in all our other games means that we have a shot at being more than "run of the mill" in the Valley. We won't win a Valley title this year, but a top half finish is a good place to start in the quest to get to that top spot in the Valley.

2. The reality is that in women's basketball, road wins are even less common than in men's. Even if that were not the case, however, OSU came into the last game beating their opponents by an average of 40.2 points at home. Add to that the fact that we were without Kyrie and Whitney and that loss looks a little different.

The fact is that aside from OSU and aTm, we have had a chance in every game we have played in this year. We haven't finished every game (although we have at home), but part of becoming a good team is learning how to finish games. Last year, we couldn't learn to finish games because we were never in them down the stretch. That shows progress. Whether or not it is enough progress is yet to be seen, but it is there.

3. Why in the world are you questioning the defense? Our only bad defensive effort was against OSU (who is a great offensive team) and that was without our starting SG to guard their great backcourt. OSU only has played two games where they scored less than they did against us, and have scored over 90 three times.

The next highest point total we have given up this year is 70, and that was to #11 aTm. Other than aTM and OSU (2 ranked teams), no one has gotten out of the 60's against us. Going into the OSU game, we led the Valley in numerous statistical categories on defense, in spite of having played tough competition away from home.

4. I can't argue about the turnovers or offense, although I will point out that Jacie has been much better in the turnover category of late which bodes well since she will be the primary ball handler for this team for the future.

5. Our recruiting has been fine. While they didn't come straight to us, both Jacie and Val were high caliber players who have transfered in. I really like our current freshman class. They are all good players, and I think DeGarmo and Smith are big time talents. The two guards we have signed for next year are putting up big numbers as well.

Our main problem has been injuries to some of our best recruits. Kiki is a phenomenal talent, but back and knee injuries have limited her for her whole career. Daria is another great athlete who just had surgery on both knees (luckily it seems that it has helped since she has played well this year). Most notable is Whitney. She was the big name recruit a lot of people were after that Jane landed, but illness and injury (she is currently out with shin splints) have limited her production.

---------------------------------------------------------

I absolutely agree that Jane is on thin ice, but I have to disagree with this sentiment that there is no way she can turn things around. I certainly don't know if she will, but there is potential to make an impact in the Valley, especially since it is not very deep. If we are in the top half of the Valley this year, I'll be in favor of keeping Jane given the amount of young talent on this team. If not, she should probably be gone, but let's at least have the decency to give this team a chance to play at least a couple of Valley games before writing them off.

[rrshock]

It all boils down to what happens in MVC play. If what has happened the previous 4 years happens again, it's easy. It'll probably be easy enough if they finish anywhere from 3 on down.

WSU has proven that they don't like losers, and this is really the only program that seems to be doing it. All of the other programs (exception women's golf - cause I don't know anything about them) are doing well in the conference and even on the national level, but the Women's BB team is not keeping up with the rest. Plain and Simple.

[shockerfanmas]

the problem is, you look at our roster and see all that talent, yet they alays underperform. so why is that? do we really have as talented of players as everybody thinks we do? is it all the coaching? a combination? somebody mentioned DS. There is a reason he is no longer coaching at WSU. He may be a good coach, but his attitude left a little to be desired