First Week of Practice

[SHOXAAC]

I was trying to point out the hazards of counting on a recruit, whether it's HS or JuCo. The track record at WSU for successful front court signees is less tha stellar.

Another consideration may be whether there are better PF's in the 2012 class than in the 2011 class.

Counting on Fr or trfr's is rolling the dice. With Ellis, you know what you're going to get. Ellis has an interesting item on his resume: 3-year starter for a 25-win D1 team.

So what would you rather have at PF next year?

1) A Fr
2) A JuCo trfr
3) A 3-year starter for a 25-win D1 team

Ellis hasn't put up great stats, but somehow he's managed to be a starter for what we think is a pretty good team. Golly, gee - how could such a bad player fool such a great coaching staff as Marshall has put together?

Maybe, just maybe, Ellis has some skills the coaching staff has recognized that some fans have not recognized.

If Ellis was typical of a 3 and 3 stats guy, then I have to believe that ANYONE other than Ellis would have been the starter last year. Since Ellis was the starter, I have to believe the coaching staff sees something other than the stat sheet.

I don't think a team can have a useless PF and have the rebounding margin WSU had last year. Maybe Ellis didn't get that many boards, but neither did the guy he was blocking out.

First of all let me say how much I appreciate and respect Hatter & Aargh. We all have passion & excitement for our beloved SHOCKERS. We may differ on some things, but differences is what makes the world go around.

Yes the track record for front cours signees is less than stellar. When a program like ours had to suffer through the Mike Cohen & Scott Thompson eras of bad recruiting and bad basketball, it has had a chronic effect even years later. But as WSU has slowly gotten better, the recruiting options at any position gets better.

As far as the quality of PF's in the '12 class being better than the '11...I don't know.

Counting on any category of recruit is rolling the dice, but again as our program gets better the "rolling of the dice" becomes less of a chance. We didn't get the Miles Kid, but do we think a year, two or three ago we would even be in the discussion??? Not a chance. When we land a kid like that the term "rolling the dice" will be a distant memory.

I would rather have another front-line recruit next year rather than AE redshirting. There are close to Miles type recruits out there.

I don't think Ellis is a bad player...he just doesn't fit the profile of where this program is and will continue to be going forward.

I don't even want to get into the "anyone other than Ellis would have been the starter last year. Coaches have said for years..."It isn't who starts, but who finishes." Tell me honestly...did Ellis finish important games last year? I don't have that data in front of me, but my logic says...NO.

Our rebounding margin had nothing to do with Ellis.

[Zardoz]

You know a few years ago people were calling for HCGM to pull Hatch's scholarship and give it to a more deserving, more athletic recruit. For whatever absurd reason HCGM ignored all of those great evaluators of talent and kept Hatch on scholarship.

I think both Ellis and HCGM want what is best for the team. Maybe Marshall sees things in practice that we don't get to see. I don't really know and I don't care because I have full faith in the man that we are compensating well north of $750,000 a year will make the right decision. Not every guy is going to be a all-MVC player. You also need guys that are going to do the grunt work, block out, give the hard foul, whatever.

[wufan]

You know a few years ago people were calling for HCGM to pull Hatch's scholarship and give it to a more deserving, more athletic recruit. For whatever absurd reason HCGM ignored all of those great evaluators of talent and kept Hatch on scholarship.

I've still got feathers coming out of my mouth on that one. No more crow for me please!

[Ashockalypse]

Yeah, quite a few people wanted JT to take a walk in his first couple of years as well.

[Zardoz]

Yeah, quite a few people wanted JT to take a walk in his first couple of years as well.

I don't know that we ever questioned JT's talent, just his work ethic at times. He admitted to being lazy at one of the media days. At one point it was questionable about his worth, with his defense could he score enough to make up the point difference? Then Marshall wanted him to be a post player and he was posting people at the free-throw line. That is not today's JT, maybe not the best defender he's not bad and he has quite a few moves at the low post and he can draw his defender out for a driving guard or make the three over a sagging defense.

[wufan]

Durley is one of the few post players in the Valley that can create his own shot no matter where he is on the post. Back to the basket, face up, top of the key...it doesn't matter. He's going to score 45% of the time when he gets the ball.

[pinstripers]

I was one that was really tired of JT's lack of effort. I wonder if Ellis could make all-defensive team next season if he should redshirt? Maybe then his 4 or 5 ppg would not be seen as such an issue. Jeeeeze.

[SHOXAAC]

Jeeeeze...have you seen AE play post defense the last 3 years. Unfortunately, he is a liability in that regard. Out on the perimeter he is golden, but at 215 pounds he doesn't have the physical makeup to consistently lock down a good low post player. No, he won't be a candidate for the all-defense team...jeeeeze.

[jcdshocker]

I was trying to point out the hazards of counting on a recruit, whether it's HS or JuCo. The track record at WSU for successful front court signees is less tha stellar.

Another consideration may be whether there are better PF's in the 2012 class than in the 2011 class.

Counting on Fr or trfr's is rolling the dice. With Ellis, you know what you're going to get. Ellis has an interesting item on his resume: 3-year starter for a 25-win D1 team.

So what would you rather have at PF next year?

1) A Fr
2) A JuCo trfr
3) A 3-year starter for a 25-win D1 team

Ellis hasn't put up great stats, but somehow he's managed to be a starter for what we think is a pretty good team. Golly, gee - how could such a bad player fool such a great coaching staff as Marshall has put together?

Maybe, just maybe, Ellis has some skills the coaching staff has recognized that some fans have not recognized.

If Ellis was typical of a 3 and 3 stats guy, then I have to believe that ANYONE other than Ellis would have been the starter last year. Since Ellis was the starter, I have to believe the coaching staff sees something other than the stat sheet.

I don't think a team can have a useless PF and have the rebounding margin WSU had last year. Maybe Ellis didn't get that many boards, but neither did the guy he was blocking out.

First of all let me say how much I appreciate and respect Hatter & Aargh. We all have passion & excitement for our beloved SHOCKERS. We may differ on some things, but differences is what makes the world go around.

Yes the track record for front cours signees is less than stellar. When a program like ours had to suffer through the Mike Cohen & Scott Thompson eras of bad recruiting and bad basketball, it has had a chronic effect even years later. But as WSU has slowly gotten better, the recruiting options at any position gets better.

As far as the quality of PF's in the '12 class being better than the '11...I don't know.

Counting on any category of recruit is rolling the dice, but again as our program gets better the "rolling of the dice" becomes less of a chance. We didn't get the Miles Kid, but do we think a year, two or three ago we would even be in the discussion??? Not a chance. When we land a kid like that the term "rolling the dice" will be a distant memory.

I would rather have another front-line recruit next year rather than AE redshirting. There are close to Miles type recruits out there.

I don't think Ellis is a bad player...he just doesn't fit the profile of where this program is and will continue to be going forward.

I don't even want to get into the "anyone other than Ellis would have been the starter last year. Coaches have said for years..."It isn't who starts, but who finishes." Tell me honestly...did Ellis finish important games last year? I don't have that data in front of me, but my logic says...NO.

Our rebounding margin had nothing to do with Ellis.

I am trying to figure you out MVC. Did you watch the games last year? Aaron was in for defensive purposes in most of the close games. To say that our rebounding margin had NOTHING to do with Ellis is assinine. Coach Marshall has nothing but good things to say about AE. Rebounding, boxing out, setting picks. Ask the players if they like playing with him. They do because he doesn't care if he scores and he does all the dirty work that doesn't get noticed by the novice basket fan.

[wufan]

Jeeeeze...have you seen AE play post defense the last 3 years. Unfortunately, he is a liability in that regard. Out on the perimeter he is golden, but at 215 pounds he doesn't have the physical makeup to consistently lock down a good low post player. No, he won't be a candidate for the all-defense team...jeeeeze.

Have to disagree here.

[SHOXAAC]

I was trying to point out the hazards of counting on a recruit, whether it's HS or JuCo. The track record at WSU for successful front court signees is less tha stellar.

Another consideration may be whether there are better PF's in the 2012 class than in the 2011 class.

Counting on Fr or trfr's is rolling the dice. With Ellis, you know what you're going to get. Ellis has an interesting item on his resume: 3-year starter for a 25-win D1 team.

So what would you rather have at PF next year?

1) A Fr
2) A JuCo trfr
3) A 3-year starter for a 25-win D1 team

Ellis hasn't put up great stats, but somehow he's managed to be a starter for what we think is a pretty good team. Golly, gee - how could such a bad player fool such a great coaching staff as Marshall has put together?

Maybe, just maybe, Ellis has some skills the coaching staff has recognized that some fans have not recognized.

If Ellis was typical of a 3 and 3 stats guy, then I have to believe that ANYONE other than Ellis would have been the starter last year. Since Ellis was the starter, I have to believe the coaching staff sees something other than the stat sheet.

I don't think a team can have a useless PF and have the rebounding margin WSU had last year. Maybe Ellis didn't get that many boards, but neither did the guy he was blocking out.

First of all let me say how much I appreciate and respect Hatter & Aargh. We all have passion & excitement for our beloved SHOCKERS. We may differ on some things, but differences is what makes the world go around.

Yes the track record for front cours signees is less than stellar. When a program like ours had to suffer through the Mike Cohen & Scott Thompson eras of bad recruiting and bad basketball, it has had a chronic effect even years later. But as WSU has slowly gotten better, the recruiting options at any position gets better.

As far as the quality of PF's in the '12 class being better than the '11...I don't know.

Counting on any category of recruit is rolling the dice, but again as our program gets better the "rolling of the dice" becomes less of a chance. We didn't get the Miles Kid, but do we think a year, two or three ago we would even be in the discussion??? Not a chance. When we land a kid like that the term "rolling the dice" will be a distant memory.

I would rather have another front-line recruit next year rather than AE redshirting. There are close to Miles type recruits out there.

I don't think Ellis is a bad player...he just doesn't fit the profile of where this program is and will continue to be going forward.

I don't even want to get into the "anyone other than Ellis would have been the starter last year. Coaches have said for years..."It isn't who starts, but who finishes." Tell me honestly...did Ellis finish important games last year? I don't have that data in front of me, but my logic says...NO.

Our rebounding margin had nothing to do with Ellis.

I am trying to figure you out MVC. Did you watch the games last year? Aaron was in for defensive purposes in most of the close games. To say that our rebounding margin had NOTHING to do with Ellis is assinine. Coach Marshall has nothing but good things to say about AE. Rebounding, boxing out, setting picks. Ask the players if they like playing with him. They do because he doesn't care if he scores and he does all the dirty work that doesn't get noticed by the novice basket fan.

Trust me...nothin to figure out. Just like you (without being a total grumpasoris) I am a die hard Shocker fan just expressing my opinion, which is worth LESS than a cup of coffee by the way. Yes, I have watched almost every game for the past 8-10 years. It is MY recollection that AE is effective on defense when he is matched up with a similar type of player, which is tall & athletic. He is very effective at defending a 3-4 type of player on the perimeter. I will take my chances every time with AE in that situation...bar none. But when asked to guard a 4-5 type player with some girth down low, he gets pushed out of position (not every time, but enough to get my attention about it). This is just my perspective jcd. And you're right, Ellis had 3 rebounds per game to contribute to the rebounding margin...my mistake. Of course Marshall has good things to say about Aaron. He is a great young man to coach, I would imagine. He does what he is told to the best of his abilities on and off the court. I would also imagine he is a great teammate for the reasons he is good to coach. I am just saying, in my VERY humble opinion, WSU would be better off AE playing this season, rebounding (3 per game), boxing out, setting picks, etc...getting his degree and going to work in the real world.

[MikeShox]

I was trying to point out the hazards of counting on a recruit, whether it's HS or JuCo. The track record at WSU for successful front court signees is less tha stellar.

Another consideration may be whether there are better PF's in the 2012 class than in the 2011 class.

Counting on Fr or trfr's is rolling the dice. With Ellis, you know what you're going to get. Ellis has an interesting item on his resume: 3-year starter for a 25-win D1 team.

So what would you rather have at PF next year?

1) A Fr
2) A JuCo trfr
3) A 3-year starter for a 25-win D1 team

Ellis hasn't put up great stats, but somehow he's managed to be a starter for what we think is a pretty good team. Golly, gee - how could such a bad player fool such a great coaching staff as Marshall has put together?

Maybe, just maybe, Ellis has some skills the coaching staff has recognized that some fans have not recognized.

If Ellis was typical of a 3 and 3 stats guy, then I have to believe that ANYONE other than Ellis would have been the starter last year. Since Ellis was the starter, I have to believe the coaching staff sees something other than the stat sheet.

I don't think a team can have a useless PF and have the rebounding margin WSU had last year. Maybe Ellis didn't get that many boards, but neither did the guy he was blocking out.

First of all let me say how much I appreciate and respect Hatter & Aargh. We all have passion & excitement for our beloved SHOCKERS. We may differ on some things, but differences is what makes the world go around.

Yes the track record for front cours signees is less than stellar. When a program like ours had to suffer through the Mike Cohen & Scott Thompson eras of bad recruiting and bad basketball, it has had a chronic effect even years later. But as WSU has slowly gotten better, the recruiting options at any position gets better.

As far as the quality of PF's in the '12 class being better than the '11...I don't know.

Counting on any category of recruit is rolling the dice, but again as our program gets better the "rolling of the dice" becomes less of a chance. We didn't get the Miles Kid, but do we think a year, two or three ago we would even be in the discussion??? Not a chance. When we land a kid like that the term "rolling the dice" will be a distant memory.

I would rather have another front-line recruit next year rather than AE redshirting. There are close to Miles type recruits out there.

I don't think Ellis is a bad player...he just doesn't fit the profile of where this program is and will continue to be going forward.

I don't even want to get into the "anyone other than Ellis would have been the starter last year. Coaches have said for years..."It isn't who starts, but who finishes." Tell me honestly...did Ellis finish important games last year? I don't have that data in front of me, but my logic says...NO.

Our rebounding margin had nothing to do with Ellis.

I am trying to figure you out MVC. Did you watch the games last year? Aaron was in for defensive purposes in most of the close games. To say that our rebounding margin had NOTHING to do with Ellis is assinine. Coach Marshall has nothing but good things to say about AE. Rebounding, boxing out, setting picks. Ask the players if they like playing with him. They do because he doesn't care if he scores and he does all the dirty work that doesn't get noticed by the novice basket fan.

Trust me...nothin to figure out. Just like you (without being a total grumpasoris) I am a die hard Shocker fan just expressing my opinion, which is worth LESS than a cup of coffee by the way. Yes, I have watched almost every game for the past 8-10 years. It is MY recollection that AE is effective on defense when he is matched up with a similar type of player, which is tall & athletic. He is very effective at defending a 3-4 type of player on the perimeter. I will take my chances every time with AE in that situation...bar none. But when asked to guard a 4-5 type player with some girth down low, he gets pushed out of position (not every time, but enough to get my attention about it). This is just my perspective jcd. And you're right, Ellis had 3 rebounds per game to contribute to the rebounding margin...my mistake. Of course Marshall has good things to say about Aaron. He is a great young man to coach, I would imagine. He does what he is told to the best of his abilities on and off the court. I would also imagine he is a great teammate for the reasons he is good to coach. I am just saying, in my VERY humble opinion, WSU would be better off AE playing this season, rebounding (3 per game), boxing out, setting picks, etc...getting his degree and going to work in the real world.

All I can say is that many of us who have also watched the games for years, as well as the coaching staff, disagree with your evaluation of Ellis' defensive presense. Maybe you are right and Coach Marshall and his staff are wrong. If so, I'm surprised because I have seen AE do so much with his quickness and positioning to overcome the bulky inside players, and I simply believe that his defense and the little things such as screens, block outs, etc are the reason he has been playing. I just have to say that I respectfully disagree with your observations and have more trust in the staff. I also believe that his defensive abilities will help he teammates improve.

As far as my hopes for whether AE redshirts or not, I guess it all depends on a couple of things. One, who does the staff believe they can land for next year? If it is some really special player, then maybe AE does not redshirt. Or, if there is any feeling that anybody might possibly leave after the coming year, maybe we would want AE to redshirt. I simply do not know, but I do believe the staff is looking at all the possibilities. As a result, I'm not leaning hard in either direction, but rather trusting that the staff has a good indication of which way will work out best.

[Snapshot9]

I have one question about AE, how can a guy that shoots so high and such a pretty shot, miss so much? He hardly ever gets blocked on his shot because he releases it so high, and it has such a pretty arc to it, but his shooting percentage seems to have gone down since the first year he played here, kind of like Murry's.

[RoyalShock]

I have one question about AE, how can a guy that shoots so high and such a pretty shot, miss so much? He hardly ever gets blocked on his shot because he releases it so high, and it has such a pretty arc to it, but his shooting percentage seems to have gone down since the first year he played here, kind of like Murry's.

Unless I'm remembering his shot wrong, I would never describe it as being "pretty". Having a good arc is fine, but I've never liked shooting forms that start above or behind the head.

But your point about percentage is valid. He seemed to hit a decent number of shots his freshman year, and showed some range to 19'8" (yes, I know) his sophomore year.

Murry's shot is a different study. I believe he modified his form between those two seasons so it's not a valid comparison, IMO.

[The Mad Hatter]

What are you talking about with Murry?

Overall Shooting Percentage:
Freshman - .371
Sophomore - .424

3 Point Shooting Percentage:
Freshman - .321
Sophomore - .331

FT Shooting Percentage:
Freshman - .753
Sophomore - .708

Both his shooting from 3 and from the field improved as a sophomore. He did shoot slightly less well from the line, but that was it. Plus, he was playing 3 minutes more per game as a sophomore than as a freshman, so that is more strain on his legs to put up those numbers.