First Week of Practice

[SHOXAAC]

And sometimes experience can be over played in certain situations. I still say we're better off as a program going with Hamilton and White at PF next year over keeping Ellis around. There are things that Ellis would provide next years team, but I don't feel it's significant enough to keep him around. I'd rather use his 'ship to bring in a FR of some kind. Even if that FR were to RS or be at another position. I think it would be a better use of the spot.

Maybe Ellis redshirts and proves me wrong. But Ellis as a starter has never made me feel great about where we were. If he hasn't tapped into his potential at this point I say we move on and wish him and his family well.

Combined Division I games played by Hamilton and White = 0.

I'm high on the potential of both of these guys too, but even counting what little playing time Hamilton will get this year, that is a whole lot of leaning on potential and very little leaning on experience. Redshirting Aaron isn't inherently a better solution that using that scholarship elsewhere, but there are also some pretty obvious advantages to having a 5th year senior to counteract our lack of experience at that position that no recruit, freshman or JUCO, can bring to the table.

Division I games played by Aaron Ellis = 99

PPG = 3
RPG = 3
* Averages less than 1 free throw attempt per game
* 23 career blocks
* 24 career steels

This is the experience AE brings from his first 3 years. He plays hard & sets good picks, but so did Brett Burley & Cameron Ledford (as did many others). I don't know what kind of a leader Aaron is. From 30,000 feet he appears very quiet. In practice it might be different, I don't know. We will have quality leadership as a whole next year. I believe the additional PF/SF we can potentially recruit will not suffer due to leadership & experience.

[Capitol Shock]

He odds are that he will only get better over the course of this year and next. I like thinking about next year with Stutz, EO, Aaron Ellis, David Kyles, Toure, Demetric and Rags. I would guess that out of that lineup and the other players that we have, we'll have a great 8 man lineup.

I like the thought of Ellis redshirting and we will have a lot of talent next year also. It's the year after that I begin to worry about.

Demetric, EO, Jerome, Tyler and our new recruits if I'm thinking correctly.

[Aargh]

When Ellis signed, he looked like the exact type of player a lot of posters would love to sign instead of having a fifth year from Ellis.

That new player you want to sign to replace Ellis might give us 4 years of the equivalent of Ellis. Maybe we should sign a 6'9" all-state type player - like Kurt Bangles. Or a really athletic 6'8" guy like Arbry Butler. Or a Gatorade Player of the Year in his state - like Chris Brown. Or a 6'8" JuCo 1st team AA - like Mantas Griskenas.

All those guys looked really great BEFORE they got to D1.

[WstateU]

When Ellis signed, he looked like the exact type of player a lot of posters would love to sign instead of having a fifth year from Ellis.

That new player you want to sign to replace Ellis might give us 4 years of the equivalent of Ellis. Maybe we should sign a 6'9" all-state type player - like Kurt Bangles. Or a really athletic 6'8" guy like Arbry Butler. Or a Gatorade Player of the Year in his state - like Chris Brown. Or a 6'8" JuCo 1st team AA - like Mantas Griskenas.

All those guys looked really great BEFORE they got to D1.

Game, Set, Match! :good:

[ShockTalk]

When Ellis signed, he looked like the exact type of player a lot of posters would love to sign instead of having a fifth year from Ellis.

That new player you want to sign to replace Ellis might give us 4 years of the equivalent of Ellis. Maybe we should sign a 6'9" all-state type player - like Kurt Bangles. Or a really athletic 6'8" guy like Arbry Butler. Or a Gatorade Player of the Year in his state - like Chris Brown. Or a 6'8" JuCo 1st team AA - like Mantas Griskenas.

All those guys looked really great BEFORE they got to D1.

Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing, but to be fair, the evaluation of 3 of the 4 players was by a different staff and 2 of the 4 players ended up having injury issues. In particular, I feel Mantas, without the injury issues, would have been a much better player than Aaron to this point.

[SHOXAAC]

When Ellis signed, he looked like the exact type of player a lot of posters would love to sign instead of having a fifth year from Ellis.

That new player you want to sign to replace Ellis might give us 4 years of the equivalent of Ellis. Maybe we should sign a 6'9" all-state type player - like Kurt Bangles. Or a really athletic 6'8" guy like Arbry Butler. Or a Gatorade Player of the Year in his state - like Chris Brown. Or a 6'8" JuCo 1st team AA - like Mantas Griskenas.

All those guys looked really great BEFORE they got to D1.

First of all, there is no mention of post-season acclaim like many players...averaged 18.5 ppg/8.0 rpg is the only information listed with Aaron. I wouldn't put that in the "he looked like the exact type of player a lot of posters would love to sign instead of having a fifth year from Ellis" category.

Second, maybe we could sign a 6-8 consensus Top-100 national recruit (Kyle Wilson); or a 6-7 All-District MVP (J. T. Durley); or a 6-7 fourth-ranked best player in the state of Texas by TEXAS BASKETBALL PREVIEW (Phillip Thomasson); or a 7-0 Rivals.com 3-star prospect (Garrett Stutz). Come on...recruiting isn't an exact science. At this point at WSU we can get in the game with players that fit a logical profile of what is needed to maintain and exceed where we are. Believe it or not coaches don't always get it correct. We know how clear hindsight is. I certainly will gladly live with what HCGM decides. I just believe this is a decision (if made), will not be a good one. It won't sink the ship.

[shockar25]

One thing to consider is Ellis' ability to defend. He's a proven defender and Hamilton and some of the other new guys are not yet proven, so I don't blame HCGM in considering this option.

[The Mad Hatter]

When Ellis signed, he looked like the exact type of player a lot of posters would love to sign instead of having a fifth year from Ellis.

That new player you want to sign to replace Ellis might give us 4 years of the equivalent of Ellis. Maybe we should sign a 6'9" all-state type player - like Kurt Bangles. Or a really athletic 6'8" guy like Arbry Butler. Or a Gatorade Player of the Year in his state - like Chris Brown. Or a 6'8" JuCo 1st team AA - like Mantas Griskenas.

All those guys looked really great BEFORE they got to D1.

First of all, there is no mention of post-season acclaim like many players...averaged 18.5 ppg/8.0 rpg is the only information listed with Aaron. I wouldn't put that in the "he looked like the exact type of player a lot of posters would love to sign instead of having a fifth year from Ellis" category.

Second, maybe we could sign a 6-8 consensus Top-100 national recruit (Kyle Wilson); or a 6-7 All-District MVP (J. T. Durley); or a 6-7 fourth-ranked best player in the state of Texas by TEXAS BASKETBALL PREVIEW (Phillip Thomasson); or a 7-0 Rivals.com 3-star prospect (Garrett Stutz). Come on...recruiting isn't an exact science. At this point at WSU we can get in the game with players that fit a logical profile of what is needed to maintain and exceed where we are. Believe it or not coaches don't always get it correct. We know how clear hindsight is. I certainly will gladly live with what HCGM decides. I just believe this is a decision (if made), will not be a good one. It won't sink the ship.

If we were to add any of the guys you mentioned for 2011-2012, none of them would have made an instant impact. Two of those guys were transfers so they would have to sit out a year, one of them redshirted, and Garrett wasn't exactly a world-beater as a freshman. Even with the successful recruits you mention and aside from the issues of busts, it is difficult to bring in big men that are ready to give you quality minutes out of the gate. Since we will be loaded with talent and experience in 2011-2012 except for experience at power forward, so we someone who we know can give quality minutes out of the gate at the Division I level. Perhaps there is a JUCO forward that fits the bill, but we have already had a couple of our top JUCO PF targets sign elsewhere, so Ellis may be our best option.

[SHOXAAC]

One thing to consider is Ellis' ability to defend. He's a proven defender and Hamilton and some of the other new guys are not yet proven, so I don't blame HCGM in considering this option.

Ellis can defend on the perimeter, but on the block...not so good, because he gets pushed around very easily at only 215 pounds.

[SHOXAAC]

When Ellis signed, he looked like the exact type of player a lot of posters would love to sign instead of having a fifth year from Ellis.

That new player you want to sign to replace Ellis might give us 4 years of the equivalent of Ellis. Maybe we should sign a 6'9" all-state type player - like Kurt Bangles. Or a really athletic 6'8" guy like Arbry Butler. Or a Gatorade Player of the Year in his state - like Chris Brown. Or a 6'8" JuCo 1st team AA - like Mantas Griskenas.

All those guys looked really great BEFORE they got to D1.

First of all, there is no mention of post-season acclaim like many players...averaged 18.5 ppg/8.0 rpg is the only information listed with Aaron. I wouldn't put that in the "he looked like the exact type of player a lot of posters would love to sign instead of having a fifth year from Ellis" category.

Second, maybe we could sign a 6-8 consensus Top-100 national recruit (Kyle Wilson); or a 6-7 All-District MVP (J. T. Durley); or a 6-7 fourth-ranked best player in the state of Texas by TEXAS BASKETBALL PREVIEW (Phillip Thomasson); or a 7-0 Rivals.com 3-star prospect (Garrett Stutz). Come on...recruiting isn't an exact science. At this point at WSU we can get in the game with players that fit a logical profile of what is needed to maintain and exceed where we are. Believe it or not coaches don't always get it correct. We know how clear hindsight is. I certainly will gladly live with what HCGM decides. I just believe this is a decision (if made), will not be a good one. It won't sink the ship.

If we were to add any of the guys you mentioned for 2011-2012, none of them would have made an instant impact. Two of those guys were transfers so they would have to sit out a year, one of them redshirted, and Garrett wasn't exactly a world-beater as a freshman. Even with the successful recruits you mention and aside from the issues of busts, it is difficult to bring in big men that are ready to give you quality minutes out of the gate. Since we will be loaded with talent and experience in 2011-2012 except for experience at power forward, so we someone who we know can give quality minutes out of the gate at the Division I level. Perhaps there is a JUCO forward that fits the bill, but we have already had a couple of our top JUCO PF targets sign elsewhere, so Ellis may be our best option.

The primary purpose of mentioning the names I did was to make a subtle point to Aargh that neither one of us can cherry pick to make a point. And to your final sentence...there is a chance AE could be our best option. What do you consider an instant impact. Again, We should expect 3-5 ppg/3-5 rpg from AE if he RS's. Since we are loaded next year, as you refer to (I agree, by the way), what a great opportunity for a new PF, or two, to get his feet wet in D-I.

[wufan]

So I think we have two clearly defined camps here, but everyone wants what is best for WSU. You guys aren't going to agree, but hey, that's what these boards are for.

Hatter believes that the 11-12 team would be best served with AE as an option unless top 100-150 PF signs with the Shocks. (I tend to agree).

SHOX thinks that we are destined to sign a top 100 freshman, or if not any old 6-7 kid would put Ellis to shame anyway.

Best scenerio for WSU is presented by Sub: We already have two world beater PFs lined up for next year! I hope you're right!!

[another shocker]

Sombody mentioned earlier that EO might not ever be a scorer, but I have to say that Ellis, while physically gifted, doesn't have the MENTALITY to be a high scorer IMO. He's too shy. Maybe Marshall can get him to step into the limelight, but I don't know..

[vancedave56]

It seems we are overlooking the possibility that AE redshirts this season...as a safety net for next season. Harsh as it may seem, next season isn't necessarily guaranteed. Once again, do we KNOW everyone will return for the following season (2011-2012)?

[Aargh]

I was trying to point out the hazards of counting on a recruit, whether it's HS or JuCo. The track record at WSU for successful front court signees is less tha stellar.

Another consideration may be whether there are better PF's in the 2012 class than in the 2011 class.

Counting on Fr or trfr's is rolling the dice. With Ellis, you know what you're going to get. Ellis has an interesting item on his resume: 3-year starter for a 25-win D1 team.

So what would you rather have at PF next year?

1) A Fr
2) A JuCo trfr
3) A 3-year starter for a 25-win D1 team

Ellis hasn't put up great stats, but somehow he's managed to be a starter for what we think is a pretty good team. Golly, gee - how could such a bad player fool such a great coaching staff as Marshall has put together?

Maybe, just maybe, Ellis has some skills the coaching staff has recognized that some fans have not recognized.

If Ellis was typical of a 3 and 3 stats guy, then I have to believe that ANYONE other than Ellis would have been the starter last year. Since Ellis was the starter, I have to believe the coaching staff sees something other than the stat sheet.

I don't think a team can have a useless PF and have the rebounding margin WSU had last year. Maybe Ellis didn't get that many boards, but neither did the guy he was blocking out.

[vancedave56]

:yes: :good: