Missouri Valley

[Fredster]

There is a lot of blah, blah, blah going on this thread as usual, but RS has hit it on the head and nothing more needs to be said. MVC needs to get rid of weak sister schools and invite bigger, attractive schools into the MVC. And we all need to write Don Beggs and Eric Sexton and tell them what we think and to get after it!

And, bring the Men's basketball tournament to KC!

[BAShocker]

And the Shocker baseball team will take Nebraska's spot in the Big 12/10. I wish.

[ISASO]

Is there any precedence for a conference 'getting rid of' a member or is it a matter of pissing them off so much that they leave? How miserable would Evansville or Drake have to be to leave? I'm not sure you could do enough ugly things to them to drive them away.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

How about this for a basketball super-conference. I think enough FCS teams to consolidate into one 8 team conference. Not a great baseball conference.

East:
----------------
Davidson
DePaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Providence
St. Johns
Seton Hall
Villanova

West:
---------------
Bradley
Butler
Creighton
Dayton
Loyola-Chicago
Missouri State
St. Louis
Wichita State

[SubGod22]

Is there any precedence for a conference 'getting rid of' a member or is it a matter of pissing them off so much that they leave? How miserable would Evansville or Drake have to be to leave? I'm not sure you could do enough ugly things to them to drive them away.

Good question, but I'm sure if enough votes were available you could remove a school. However, it may depend how many schools are on the chopping block and if others would see the writing on the wall. In which case, you probably wouldn't get the votes to remove certain schools. Maybe we can institute some fines for poor performance and/or poor scheduling. That would require teams to play better OOC games and actually perform to a certain level. That would be fine by me but I know it won't happen. But something along those lines might push some weaker teams to leave.

[shockar25]

How about this for a basketball super-conference. I think enough FCS teams to consolidate into one 8 team conference. Not a great baseball conference.

East:
----------------
Davidson
DePaul
Georgetown
Marquette
Providence
St. Johns
Seton Hall
Villanova

West:
---------------
Bradley
Butler
Creighton
Dayton
Loyola-Chicago
Missouri State
St. Louis
Wichita State

Cool but one thing to keep in mind on all of this is, it would set a bit of a scary precedent.

Example: SIU was a force just 1-2 seasons ago (multiple NCAA bids in a short amount of years) and they'll already be left out in the cold? What about Ill. State? What about UNI? They just won the league and have the most name recognition in the general population radar at least for a short time...

So what's the rule? You don't win for a couple of years (now, Evansville and Indiana State are both exceptions because we all know how they are...) and you're out? Ouch. As much as I hope and pray that WSU will be a power in the MVC or more importantly the national scene for many years to come, we all know things can change on a dime. If HCGM gets a good offer sometime down the road and recruits jump ship we could be back to a losing record in quick time. I doubt that would happen but it's not impossible, and if you start putting some teams aside that arguably do have a better recent NCAA appearance resume than us, who pay their coaches comparable amounts it gets a bit dicey at best.

The bottom line in my mind on this is we will need to win a lot of games for many years before we would be considered by outsiders (people not very familiar with Valley history) as a basketball 'power'. Can we do it? Absolutely. If a school like Gonzaga can do it, you bet we can too. But it takes time and consistent performance and exposure outside Fox Sports Midwest and Kansas Now 22 over multiple years to become a household basketball name like that and be considered for any power basketball conference proposals.

I think that proposed conference looks cool (we can always dream) but highly unlikely in the foreseeable future. Probably that was all your intent was anyway, which I understand too.

[HockeyShock]

Here's an interesting idea, in light of the possible resurrection of the Big 12 and the Indy State developments (and forgive me if this has already been posed someplace else):

Can Wichita State petition to join the Big 12 as a non-football school?

In men's basketball and baseball, we're a clear upgrade from either Nebraska or Colorado. Everything else is probably a wash or an upgrade. We have strong programs for track, tennis, and golf.

:clap: :wsu_posters: :yahoo: :clap:

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

These conferences aren't looking at competitiveness. Check their record in Football and Basketball the last 4 years:


16-33 overall and 10-22 conference record in football.

43-78 overall and 13-51 conference recrord in basketball.

Its about money, TV markets, endowments, private supporters, etc. Education comes a distance 15th, and competitiveness in sports somewhere in teh 22nd-23rd range.

[SHOCKvalue]

On the topic of the MVC, this thread made me laugh: http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=33089
Conference envy is funny.

That place is a glorified community college and their fan base reflects that reality.

Maybe I should forward to them my recent post outlining the respective endowments and research spending levels of MVC institutions:

http://www.shockernet.net/sn/viewtopic.php?p=331675&highlight=#331675

WSU has an endowment 2.5 times larger than UNI's, and our research spending is 16 times larger. Maybe they could tell us what exactly that makes UNI, if WSU is the "community college" out of the two. I'd pay good money to see the spin downplaying those inconvenient statistics.

Objectively, one is a research university who has to compete with much larger peers, the other is more of a peer to our own Emporia State, Fort Hays State, Pitt State, et al. who just so happens to play D1 sports. UNI has no engineering school, no health profession school, nearly non-existent doctoral opportunities, and little to no academic research. There's nothing that they have that we don't, but there's plenty we have which they don't. They're quite literally a public liberal arts school with historical roots as a teachers college - hence, the "Emporia State University" of Iowa.

[Aargh]

I'm afraid the Valley is going to struggle to remain at or near the top of the non-BCS basketball leagues.

WSU is in a better position to move forward in basketball than many other schools in the Valley. For any UNI fans who might be visiting and want to go running to their board with more "look at the arrogant Shocker fans" posts, it's not arrogance - it's budget.

UNI is sucking on fumes to keep the doors of their athletic department open. They're just barely breaking even - if they do break even. And they're looking at having to replace $4 mill of state funding that the state would like to stop contributing to UNI's athletic department. They already had to drop baseball.

InSU wasn't paying their coach enough to keep him from taking an assistant coaching job. There are rumors going around that part of the reason for McKenna leaving wa a cut to the basketball budget.

SIU is too broke to fire a coach who is destroying their program. It's a pretty good bet that they won't be paying their next coach any where near what Lowery is getting.

MSU kept Hinson around for about two years when it was obvious he was a dead duck because they couldn't afford to fire him. Then they point to poor recruiting as one of the reasons they had to fire him.

Those third-tier football teams are open wounds on an athletic department budget. It costs about the same to have a FB player on scholarship in a third-tier program as it does in a BCS program.

I think it's time for WSU, Bradley, CU and maybe a few others to start exploring finding some similar schools and associating ourselves with schools willing and able to commit the needed resources.

Then let the programs that are on the verge of taking 6 guarantee road games every year just to stay afloat and let them join up with some other teams with the same attitude or situation.

[Ta town]

I think it's time for WSU, Bradley, CU and maybe a few others to start exploring finding some similar schools and associating ourselves with schools willing and able to commit the needed resources.

Then let the programs that are on the verge of taking 6 guarantee road games every year just to stay afloat and let them join up with some other teams with the same attitude or situation.

I see two problems with this when you are talking non football schools only.

1) a very large majority of these teams are private

2) all these teams seem to be northeast of us and adding anymore would mean further north and east than where the league stretches now. Being the southern and western most school would really stretch WSU and damage baseball even more.

The answer is south of WSU and requires football. Plain and simple, you have one option to improve without football. Not to mention WSU would always be concerned with the almighty catholic league breaking it up. With football maybe sunbelt or conf usa. I think in both leagues you will find a larger percentage of schools that are public and in better financial condition than the valley on a whole. I really don't think the basketball will suffer and baseball will reap the benefits.

[wufan]

Yep, gotta agree that we need to be looking South East, and that requires some level of FB!

[KC Shox]

And the Shocker baseball team will take Nebraska's spot in the Big 12/10. I wish.

I would really love to see this. Notre Dame is not affiliated with any BCS conference in football but is in the Big 10 for basketball. Why can't we just be in the Big 12 for baseball? Me thinks KU would do all they could to shoot this down.

[SpanglerFan316]

On the topic of the MVC, this thread made me laugh: http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=33089
Conference envy is funny.

That place is a glorified community college and their fan base reflects that reality.

Maybe I should forward to them my recent post outlining the respective endowments and research spending levels of MVC institutions:

http://www.shockernet.net/sn/viewtopic.php?p=331675&highlight=#331675

WSU has an endowment 2.5 times larger than UNI's, and our research spending is 16 times larger. Maybe they could tell us what exactly that makes UNI, if WSU is the "community college" out of the two. I'd pay good money to see the spin downplaying those inconvenient statistics.

Objectively, one is a research university who has to compete with much larger peers, the other is more of a peer to our own Emporia State, Fort Hays State, Pitt State, et al. who just so happens to play D1 sports. UNI has no engineering school, no health profession school, nearly non-existent doctoral opportunities, and little to no academic research. There's nothing that they have that we don't, but there's plenty we have which they don't. They're quite literally a public liberal arts school with historical roots as a teachers college - hence, the "Emporia State University" of Iowa.

Look at three things on this MVC wiki page: 1. Enrollment 2. Number of Faculty 3. Endowment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Valley_Conference

For example, click on WSU and find 1. 14,823 2. 479 full-time (+ 41 part-time) 3. $170.1 million (I think the current number of WSU faculty is around 420-430 but I'm not certain.)

CU? 1. 7,385 2. 734 full-time (+ 226 part-time) 3. $284 million

UNI? 1. 13,080 (+ 1,933 Postgrads) 2. 800 3. $65.8 M

MSU? 1. 20,842 2. 1,015 3. $148 million

ISU-blue? 1. 10,534 2. 436 3. $37.9 million

BU? 1. 5,301 (+ 800) 2. 389 3. $178.7 million

ETC.

Does the student-faculty ratio at WSU seem "strange" to you, in comparison with other MVC schools? I seem to recall a time when WSU had 600+ faculty, if memory serves me correctly.

[SHOCKvalue]

On the topic of the MVC, this thread made me laugh: http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=33089
Conference envy is funny.

That place is a glorified community college and their fan base reflects that reality.

Maybe I should forward to them my recent post outlining the respective endowments and research spending levels of MVC institutions:

http://www.shockernet.net/sn/viewtopic.php?p=331675&highlight=#331675

WSU has an endowment 2.5 times larger than UNI's, and our research spending is 16 times larger. Maybe they could tell us what exactly that makes UNI, if WSU is the "community college" out of the two. I'd pay good money to see the spin downplaying those inconvenient statistics.

Objectively, one is a research university who has to compete with much larger peers, the other is more of a peer to our own Emporia State, Fort Hays State, Pitt State, et al. who just so happens to play D1 sports. UNI has no engineering school, no health profession school, nearly non-existent doctoral opportunities, and little to no academic research. There's nothing that they have that we don't, but there's plenty we have which they don't. They're quite literally a public liberal arts school with historical roots as a teachers college - hence, the "Emporia State University" of Iowa.

Look at three things on this MVC wiki page: 1. Enrollment 2. Number of Faculty 3. Endowment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Valley_Conference

For example, click on WSU and find 1. 14,823 2. 479 full-time (+ 41 part-time) 3. $170.1 million (I think the current number of WSU faculty is around 420-430 but I'm not certain.)

CU? 1. 7,385 2. 734 full-time (+ 226 part-time) 3. $284 million

UNI? 1. 13,080 (+ 1,933 Postgrads) 2. 800 3. $65.8 M

MSU? 1. 20,842 2. 1,015 3. $148 million

ISU-blue? 1. 10,534 2. 436 3. $37.9 million

BU? 1. 5,301 (+ 800) 2. 389 3. $178.7 million

ETC.

Does the student-faculty ratio at WSU seem "strange" to you, in comparison with other MVC schools? I seem to recall a time when WSU had 600+ faculty, if memory serves me correctly.

Wiki would be the last place I'd look for solid statistics, especially anything updated and current.

The source links for endowment (NACUBO) and research (NSF) in my other posts are generally accepted to be reliable, as you see them used as media sources as well. No idea on the faculty thoughts.