Hey Shockers, USU fan here...

[The Mad Hatter]

Rather than start another topic I would like to throw this out for general discussion. Utah State (as noted by their fans) has the same problems WSU does in their ooc schedule. I'm sure others with similar rpi's have the same problems (WSU & Utah State) in not wanting to give 2 for 1 to the not non-bcs schools (bcs). Wouldn't it make sense to schedule schools of similar ilk and rpi home and away for multiple years. I know I would have liked WSU to have played GMU in a series like this and apparently their fans were supportive. Utah State looks like a great team to try and start a series with after the bb. If you can get a series started with as many as 8 schools you would have 4 home games with good teams as well as playing 4 away games against good competition. Looks like a win win for everyone involved. Thoughts?

Wish this could happen. Both schools have a rabid following and relative rpi strength to make this a no-brainer. The only issue I see re: the 8 school idea is travel. All the schools would probably prefer to travel as little as possible ... some of the "outliers" may balk at having to travel further. With that said, that should NOT be that big of a deal. Let's do this!

The other problem is that neither school probably does much recruiting in the other school's backyard. As I said earlier in this thread, I would really like to see a long-term series, but, for better or worse, if teams are going to travel in the non-con, they like to be able to pair it with recruiting.

[WSUwatcher]

Yep

Good point about recruiting territory, Hatter, which raises the question why that WSU-George Mason series has never materialized. Surely the DC area isn't completely foreign for Marshall and his staff?

[Rosewood]

The other problem I see is that it really does nothing for the winner or the loser.

If Utah State and Wichita State had played earlier in the year, whoever lost would have a potential resume killer and whoever won wouldn't have much of anything to brag about (at least in the eyes of the national media) unless both teams then go on to be absolutely fantastic.

[USUALUM]

The other problem I see is that it really does nothing for the winner or the loser.

If Utah State and Wichita State had played earlier in the year, whoever lost would have a potential resume killer and whoever won wouldn't have much of anything to brag about (at least in the eyes of the national media) unless both teams then go on to be absolutely fantastic.

Solid points about the recruiting. I guess it's a little different for USU. We recruit almost exclusively where we play in conference (i.e. UT/CA/ID).

To your point Rosewood, it would help help USU immensely. A road loss to a top 100 RPI team is much, much less devastating than a loss to a Long Beach State (RPI 130), which we did ... ouch. Additionally, if you look at the WAC opponents and the MVC opponents (which factor heavily into the rpi equation - even as far as opponents opponents) it's much better than playing Big West or Sun Belt types.

If you look at your expected end of season RPI help index (http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/Wichita%20St..html - scroll down), USU comes in as the 5th weighted "helper", one better than Pittsburgh. Conversely, WSU comes in as our 7th best. Losses to good teams, especially on the road, are far from devastating. Lastly, wins against top 50 or 100 teams in OOC are viewed favorably come selection Sunday.

Upgrading OOC schedules has been the bane of our existence since joining the WAC. I would love to have WSU on the schedule H and H every few years.

[WuDrWu]

All the rpi management talk doesn't mean much to me. What matters to me is making your team one of the best teams in the country and preparing your team to compete against the best (i.e. the NCAA tournament).


Are we prepared to win in the tournament? Are we one of the best 65 teams in the country? The only way you really know is to actually PLAY top 65 teams. Otherwise you're just hoping.

Unless memory fails me, USU has been left out of the dance recently with guady records. Teams like USU and WSU don't get to ride the coattails of 60-80% of our conferences....in fact quite the opposite. We usually have to overcome 60-80% of our conferences.

We have 2 options, imho. Schedule a ton of *******, build a nice record, play 1 or 2 (at most) meaningful games, pray that the Big 6 conferences are weaker than usual then hope to hell nobody notices how untested you are and sneak in as at large, in all likelihood totally unprepared for what awaits you in the dance where you go 1 and done almost every time.

Option 2 is to be aggressive, schedule at least 60% of your non con tough, be creative in playing games away from home, test yourself early and often and get on TV as often as possible to show you aren't afraid to play anyone. Win and you've punched your ticket. Mixed results at least give you a chance if you dominate your league and lose and at least you're battle hardened and better prepared to attack your conference tournament when the time comes.

I'm not saying it's easy. It's never easy. Hell, it's not easy to schedule 12 cupcakes (ok it is, but you get my point). That being said, I'm pretty sure for 2011-2012 (the next season to really alter the schedule) something like

Home Exhibition
Home Tulsa (2 for 2)
Away Utah State (2 for 2)
Home George Mason (bb)
Away Western Ky (bb return)
Neutral Missouri (KC Sprint with KSU v UCONN)
Home Buy Cupcake
Home Buy Cupcake
Away Buy Kentucky
Nuetral Oklahoma Ford Center (1-1-1)
Home UMKC
Home New Mexico (MWC-MVC Challenge)

There's 11 games without a tourney and nothing there is out of line or unimaginable. That is a challenging schedule that prepares a team for postseason.

[Rosewood]

The other problem I see is that it really does nothing for the winner or the loser.

If Utah State and Wichita State had played earlier in the year, whoever lost would have a potential resume killer and whoever won wouldn't have much of anything to brag about (at least in the eyes of the national media) unless both teams then go on to be absolutely fantastic.

Solid points about the recruiting. I guess it's a little different for USU. We recruit almost exclusively where we play in conference (i.e. UT/CA/ID).

To your point Rosewood, it would help help USU immensely. A road loss to a top 100 RPI team is much, much less devastating than a loss to a Long Beach State (RPI 130), which we did ... ouch. Additionally, if you look at the WAC opponents and the MVC opponents (which factor heavily into the rpi equation - even as far as opponents opponents) it's much better than playing Big West or Sun Belt types.

If you look at your expected end of season RPI help index (http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/Wichita%20St..html - scroll down), USU comes in as the 5th weighted "helper", one better than Pittsburgh. Conversely, WSU comes in as our 7th best. Losses to good teams, especially on the road, are far from devastating. Lastly, wins against top 50 or 100 teams in OOC are viewed favorably come selection Sunday.

Upgrading OOC schedules has been the bane of our existence since joining the WAC. I would love to have WSU on the schedule H and H every few years.

Very well thought out point and I'm glad you didn't take my comment as a slight. I agree with your statistical analysis but I was thing more along the lines of human analysis, the people at CBS and ESPN and the AP that can't see past the names more than the numbers.

[RoyalShock]

Solid points about the recruiting. I guess it's a little different for USU. We recruit almost exclusively where we play in conference (i.e. UT/CA/ID).

To your point Rosewood, it would help help USU immensely. A road loss to a top 100 RPI team is much, much less devastating than a loss to a Long Beach State (RPI 130), which we did ... ouch. Additionally, if you look at the WAC opponents and the MVC opponents (which factor heavily into the rpi equation - even as far as opponents opponents) it's much better than playing Big West or Sun Belt types.

If you look at your expected end of season RPI help index (http://www.rpiforecast.com/teams/Wichita%20St..html - scroll down), USU comes in as the 5th weighted "helper", one better than Pittsburgh. Conversely, WSU comes in as our 7th best. Losses to good teams, especially on the road, are far from devastating. Lastly, wins against top 50 or 100 teams in OOC are viewed favorably come selection Sunday.

Upgrading OOC schedules has been the bane of our existence since joining the WAC. I would love to have WSU on the schedule H and H every few years.

I had not seen the help index at rpiforecast before. Thanks for pointing that out. It shows that USU is setting up to be our best OOC RPI-affecting game - better than Pitt (neutral) and TTech (home).

[WSUShokker]

All the rpi management talk doesn't mean much to me. What matters to me is making your team one of the best teams in the country and preparing your team to compete against the best (i.e. the NCAA tournament).


Are we prepared to win in the tournament? Are we one of the best 65 teams in the country? The only way you really know is to actually PLAY top 65 teams. Otherwise you're just hoping.

Unless memory fails me, USU has been left out of the dance recently with guady records. Teams like USU and WSU don't get to ride the coattails of 60-80% of our conferences....in fact quite the opposite. We usually have to overcome 60-80% of our conferences.

We have 2 options, imho. Schedule a ton of ####, build a nice record, play 1 or 2 (at most) meaningful games, pray that the Big 6 conferences are weaker than usual then hope to hell nobody notices how untested you are and sneak in as at large, in all likelihood totally unprepared for what awaits you in the dance where you go 1 and done almost every time.

Option 2 is to be aggressive, schedule at least 60% of your non con tough, be creative in playing games away from home, test yourself early and often and get on TV as often as possible to show you aren't afraid to play anyone. Win and you've punched your ticket. Mixed results at least give you a chance if you dominate your league and lose and at least you're battle hardened and better prepared to attack your conference tournament when the time comes.

I'm not saying it's easy. It's never easy. Hell, it's not easy to schedule 12 cupcakes (ok it is, but you get my point). That being said, I'm pretty sure for 2011-2012 (the next season to really alter the schedule) something like

Home Exhibition
Home Tulsa (2 for 2)
Away Utah State (2 for 2)
Home George Mason (bb)
Away Western Ky (bb return)
Neutral Missouri (KC Sprint with KSU v UCONN)
Home Buy Cupcake
Home Buy Cupcake
Away Buy Kentucky
Nuetral Oklahoma Ford Center (1-1-1)
Home UMKC
Home New Mexico (MWC-MVC Challenge)

There's 11 games without a tourney and nothing there is out of line or unimaginable. That is a challenging schedule that prepares a team for postseason.

I like that alot Doc....its not over the top but measured and realistic. I wonder what if any the possibilities there were for a more difficult schedule that may have been available to us for this year that we just didnt feel comfortable with....who knows maybe nothing....It seems as if scheduling is kept pretty close to the vest....what was offered, what was counter offered...who did we talk to or who talked to us.

Maybe not a healthy disscussion as its all water under the bridge now...Just makes you wonder and think what goes on.

[shock]

anybody know the reason for the delayed return game? :(

[RoyalShock]

anybody know the reason for the delayed return game? :(

As it has been, teams will play either 2 road games or 2 home games in the same year as a result of participating in BracketBusters. By delaying the return game an extra year, it gives teams a home and away in the same season.

See my post in another topic here: http://www.shockernet.net/sn/viewtop...=304286#304286

[WuDrWu]

I like that alot Doc....its not over the top but measured and realistic. I wonder what if any the possibilities there were for a more difficult schedule that may have been available to us for this year that we just didnt feel comfortable with....who knows maybe nothing....It seems as if scheduling is kept pretty close to the vest....what was offered, what was counter offered...who did we talk to or who talked to us.

Maybe not a healthy disscussion as its all water under the bridge now...Just makes you wonder and think what goes on.

Yes it does. I'd like to add that my scenario still allows for 16 home games. That's 2 fewer than this year (of course my scenario does not include a 4 for 1 exempt tournament either), but I would think is still an acceptable number for the vast majority of WSU faithful.

Add to that VERY travelable roadies to Kansas City, OKC & St. Louis and you still get to see upwards of 20 games in person.

[SubGod22]

anybody know the reason for the delayed return game? :(

As it has been, teams will play either 2 road games or 2 home games in the same year as a result of participating in BracketBusters. By delaying the return game an extra year, it gives teams a home and away in the same season.

See my post in another topic here: http://www.shockernet.net/sn/viewtop...=304286#304286

That won't be 100% accurate as they do rotate some teams as to not keep half the teams from ever being able to play eachother. But I get the thinking behind it. Simple fact is some teams will still end up with 2 home or away games unless they don't flip some of them and prevent some from ever matching up.

[WuDrWu]

How about Wichita State, Gonzaga, K State and Vanderbilt (for instance) at IBA....maybe just a 2 game feature for tv or a mini tournament.

[pogo]

I know I would prefer to see a tougher schedule and risk some more losses but you know how coaches feel about any loss. They tend to think in terms of job security. Surely HCGM understands at this time the administration and or fans are not going to be calling for his head if he suffers ooc losses against good competition. The valley race is a different issue of course depending if the valley continues to upgrade its talent. The Shox should play tougher teams to play themselves into the tournament rather than just hope everything aligns and they squeek in. Look at IlSt and their pathetic ooc and sCUm in never advancing in the ncaa.

[Zardoz]

We need a tougher OOC schedule in the future and I'm sure that that will be adressed for next season. It's a numbers game that comes down to revenue. As BB is the no 1 revenue generating sport at WSU we have to balance revenue vs RPI. Maybe that's the reason for the cupcakes this year.

If other high mid-major teams would agree to a H and H both team could do away with the cupcakes and engage in meaningful game in the OOC.