Post Game Cardinal v. Shockers

[WSUwatcher]

Foundations

Obviously you can't keep laying foundations forever, Royal. But I'd say the comparisons you made between Marshall's recruiting start at WSU and Turgeon's look pretty favorable to me at this point -- MUCH more upside with the GM guys.

Let's hope he follows through in the same fashion with quality fill-ins and upgrades. That's what I expect, and it's why I expect the Marshall future to be brighter than the Turgeon past.

[SubGod22]

Re: Foundations

Obviously you can't keep laying foundations forever, Royal. But I'd say the comparisons you made between Marshall's recruiting start at WSU and Turgeon's look pretty favorable to me at this point -- MUCH more upside with the GM guys.

Let's hope he follows through in the same fashion with quality fill-ins and upgrades. That's what I expect, and it's why I expect the Marshall future to be brighter than the Turgeon past.

:good:

[SpanglerFan316]

Thank you Sub and Watcher for your reasonable outlooks. I don't think any of us would disagree with Cold that, ultimately, we want to see a more athletic team although I would add that I also hope they are players with basketball IQ/instinct. Athleticism alone does not make a basketball player and the lack of it does not preclude a player from being effective and succsessful. We will certainly need to become more athletic to compete as a top 50 program consistently and I agree with Cold on that point. WSU has the level of support and resources that I think we should be at that level each year and I will be as dissappointed as anyone if we don't obtain that level within the next few years. But it's a process ... a journey, and we're still a fair distance from the destination yet. Patience.

Nate Funk !! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nate_Funk
Paul Miller !! http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/ncaato...ndy&id=2373156

[ShockCounselor]

Nice finds Spangler (widipedia?? no kidding?). I personally would add Kyle Wilson. I don't think most would have considered Kyle "athletic", i.e. he wasn't especially quick, strong, didn't have great speed or leaping ability ... but he certainly was effective. Hence, the frontline of the most successful WSU team of the last 20 years fits the "not especially athletic but very effective" realm.

[C0|dB|00ded]

Re: Yep

..but the adults among us know that it's going to a take a while for the upgrades to occur. Right now, we're still in transition.

We've been in "transition" since about 1990. Those of us that have suffered through the 90's and were just not quite old enough to thoroughly enjoy the early 80's, are tired of the transition process. The Turgeon Era now seems like nothing more than a big tease in what feels like a lifetime of college basketball pain.

The misapplication of my sentiments is what is leading to the confusion on here. Most think I am down at an inappropriate time because we indeed have some "great" recruits coming in. But if you had my frame of reference you would understand the frustration I am releasing after the game Monday night. I think a Randy Smithson team would have fared just as well...

Tuesday was a time for me to reflect on the state of the program. I have been pimping the Shockers on these forums since the start of the Turgeon Era. Nobody can spin the positive like I can... But the Shockers, like the Chicago Cubs, can be a real tough team to follow. Perhaps that is why we have such hardcore fans. Bandwagoners simply cannot survive in such a cursed environment.

People have stated on here many times before, we have suffered from some of the most incredible bad luck in history; from injuries, to recruits dying, to shot clock "malfunctions", to last-second buzzer-beaters (times 10), to horrible management decisions, to being located next door to a top 10 basketball program that has it out for you..., to plane crashes, to being withheld from tournament play over a winter coat when you had one of the best teams in the 100 year history of your program, etc. etc. etc. I'm just ready for the Shockers to get a break. We get a great recruit in Mo Evans in the midst of a tough period in Shocker history. This is the kind of player you can build a program around. But what happens? It all goes to **** and he bails on us because he (as well as our coach) are both mental.

Everything the Shockers have ever gotten had to be earned the hardest way. We throw a ton of money at our athletic endeavors and seem to get very little return relative to other schools. It feels like we are always working against the tide. That is the best way I can describe it.. Some have asked whether we built the Roundhouse on an Indian burial ground. I think that should be looked into. For all the mediocre teams that have come into our house and lit our asses up, there has to be some sort of magic involved.

Now a slightly more positive note so folks don't start worrying (or celebrating) that I might be at the end of my rope:

For a program that has required maximum effort for modest success over the last 20 years, we certainly seem to have the right guy in regards to someone who is willing to smash through the concrete-like walls of resistance that has been holding our program back from what it should be achieving. GG is tough and he is pissed. I just hope he is strong enough to weather the storm. The strain Turgeon endured while turning our program around is well-documented. For many years he couldn't eat or sleep. I really thought he was going to wreck himself. Then he had one big year for all his hard work and then he was gone...

How quickly our program "dismantled itself" is testament to the tide that is running against our fine university. You have to believe that at some point, it gets easier.. I mean, a paltry university like NIU can't make a mistake. A teacher's college in the middle of nowhere with a budget so meager that they decide to cancel baseball, wins the basketball championship in a tiny, empty, gym. I remember Turgeon taking that net in his fist and shaking it like it was a parasite that he just ripped from his body. You could see in his eyes the strain it took to simply win the conference. The "richest" school in the Valley had to perform a miracle to simply win the regular season trophy.

Right now we have two proven players that will do good things for us in the future: Murry and Durley. The rest are unproven, short-lived, or haven't truly shown that they are going to contribute anything significant. We have some players next year coming in that should be very good. But people are saying the same things about them that we said about Hawkins. We really don't know how they will turn out until they have been here and played, and went to class, etc. etc.

My faith is weak -It's time for us to have some positive surprises. It's time for us to get a "gift" or two... WuDrWu can attest to this; when you really pour your heart and soul into something you have little control over, it takes a toll. Many of those who tout their superior "maturity" and "patience" are either not invested emotionally in the program and/or are permanently scarred from the 90's vowing to never let themselves care too much again...

*waiting for some positive surprises*


T


...8)

[Ricardo del Rio]

But if you had my frame of reference you would understand the frustration I am releasing after the game Monday night. I think a Randy Smithson team would have fared just as well...

Frustration causes one to say words, which he doesn't really mean.

I know you do not mean the Coach Smithson comment.

I still love thee.

[ShockCounselor]

Actually Cold, there's a little counseling theroy floating around in a few of your comments. Maybe I am scarred and unwilling to invest as much emotion as in past years. But ... as someone that has "invested" since 1975, I prefer to think that I have a historical perspective that entitles me to suggest "patience" based on what I am currently observing and comparing it to many years of assessing talent and coaching at our university. And ... from that personal perspective, I feel much more confident in the level of existing players, recruiting, coaching, and player development than I've felt in many years ... since Eddie Fogler ... including Turgeon's years who, frankly, I believe was/is overrated. That said, I too am not willing to take anything for granted and want to see how incoming players really perform and resist the hype of the unknown. But I can still be hopeful and positive about the direction and progress of the program to this point.

[shockrah]

Cold ... you are certainly entitled to your opinion about the game but I would suggest that you are catastrophizing it a bit ("40 minutes of fear and confusion on our part."). I also felt that we were intimidated early. Stanford has solid senior talent with sweet 16 experience and showed excellent shooting. That's going to intimidate a lot of teams with a lot more experience than we currently have. There is no question we were back on our heels. But from my perspective, we settled in towards the end of the first half and competed the rest of the way for the most part. As someone else pointed out, we actually outscored them by 6 from some point beginning late in the first half ... outscored them by 3 if you want to take away the late "3" by Hannah. I'm not one to over hype performance and last night was, overall, a poor performance, BUT a great learning experience for this very young, still inexperienced group. While I certainly wish they had played better and competed for the entire game I don't think there is any reason to allow this ONE game to diminsh the progress of the entire season or temper enthusiasm for the future. And now ... I'm out of here also.

As I mentioned before, it was a wake-up call for me. I'm sure the Shockers are going to get better, but we are going to need a helluva lot better personnel before we pass the "eye test". I used to think Durley was a pretty good BCS-type body. Last night he looked like a dough-boy in the paint amongst that stable of stallions.

Paul Miller did a helluva lot to quell my feelings of insecurity personnel-wise. He was big, strong, and passed the "eye test". Having Kyle roam the perimeter at 6'8" helped a ton as well. Now we've gone three years without any semblance of a BCS-style frontcourt and I am tired of it.

Stutz must perform a Stormin' Mormon'esque transformation next year or it will be more of the same. I'm also putting a helluva lot of faith in Gabe Blair to ease my pain, but history forces me to not expect much.

Also, I am still reeling over the "Hawkins Debacle". I NEVER saw that one coming... Imagine how different we would have looked last night with two star guards in 6'4" Murry and 6'5" Hawkins playing together... Hawkins was by and large a complete and utter flop this year. How could P.J. be so wrong?

I know I sound a bit more negative than usual but three straight years of obvious positional holes and sub-sub-standard performance is getting on my nerves. Years are being wasted and we are being mocked by fans of schools and programs that are completely inconsequential. If we don't have an outstanding year next year, I will be very very down on this program.


T


...8)

I own the copyright on "The Stormin' Mormon"! :yahoo:

[Rosewood]

Cold is a waste of energy...

The scientist in me laughed at this.

(I couldn't be bothered to read the rest of the thread)

[rZ]

Cold

Luckily, we now have a coach that walks the walk. He says that he thrives on the "Its us against the world" mentality...others have made the same comment, but GM proves it each and every time he steps into The Chuck.

That is exactly what it takes to fight the tide.

[pinstripers]

Stormin Morman? What about Graham Cracker?

[GarH]

I very rarely get to see the Shocks play since I live in Tucson. Monday was one of those rare opportunities and I was hoping to see them beat Stanford. Took my wife (WSU alumni) out to Boston's Sports Bar and had some great pizza while we watched the game. We were all decked out in our Shocker gear, but unfortunately it wasn't the Shockers night. It was just one of those bad shooting nights. Every team has them from time to time.

As far as HC Marshall, nothing has made me change my mind about how happy I am that he is the coach. In one or two years the Shockers will be regularly winning the Valley championship.

[WSUwatcher]

Cold is a waste of energy...

And, as we all know, "energy is neither created nor destroyed, just transformed -- and sometimes wasted." (Cold's Law of Thermodynamics)

Thanks for the inspiration, Rose.

[jdmee]

Cold,

Here are some numbers for you on our "ton of money" spent.

Budget link

The Wichita State Basketball budget for 2008 was $3.1 million, which puts us second in the MVC, behind Creighton, and 76th in the NCAA. We are third in our state with Kansas at $9.4 million and K-State at $4.8 million.

The average MVC team spends $2.14 million.

Memphis, the team you liken us to, spent a whopping $7.84 million. This puts them at 6th in the NCAA. Conference-USA spends an average $2.7 million or without including Memphis $2.27 million. Memphis out spends the #2 team in the C-USA by over $4 million.

Prior to the Turgeon years I would expect our number and ranking to be much lower. But if you want us to be with the big boys you need to figure out how we could double our budget.

[RoyalShock]

Interesting link, jdmee.

Only four power-conference schools spend less than us. Only six teams outside the power conferences, not including Memphis, spend more. Surprisingly, TCU is the highest spending of those six at $4.75 million (#37).

Gonzaga is at 93 with $2.58 million.

Valley Rankings
64 - Creighton, $3.6 mil
76 - WSU, $3.1 mil
83 - Bradley, $2.9 mil
103 - SIU, $2.1 mil
124 - Drake, $1.9 mil
134 - MSU, $1.8 mil
141 - Evansville, $1.7 mil
158 - UNI, $1.5 mil
171 - Illinois St., $1.4 mil :shock:
189 - Indiana St., $1.3 mil

Yeah, quite surprised to see the Redbirds that low, and Drake that high.