Crowd

[WuDrWu]

Eddie was a solid recruiter, not a great one. He did not accomplish, revenue-wise, what Mark did. He did, imho, leave the player pool in much better shape.

Doc, not to ding the guys that were left, but that's not saying a lot.

You are right, and I did not mean it to say a lot either. Eddie, not unlike other coaches that leave for "greener pastures" (not only WSU), did not recruit well his last year and the program also saw some defections.

[WuDrWu]

Re: Fogler

It's been a long time ago, but if memory serves me correctly, most of what Fogler did here was with talent that Smithson recruited before him. I remember thinking that was the case for years after that! Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've had a strong feeling about him in that regard for years.

A little of both. The best players during that time were John Cooper and Paul Guffrovich, both Eddie recruits & both top 40 players in the program all time, imho.

Certainly Hank Carr and the Praylow twins had a lot to do with Eddie's success and they were all Gene's recruits. However, they all were made to be FAR better players under Eddie than they ever were or would have been under Gene.

[WuDrWu]

That's what I thought too. And Folger did the same thing at Vanderbilt, took a fairly ready made team, had success, left them high and dry. Went to South Caroline (I believe) which had little talent at the time and had a tough time building the program. So he retired to a different career.

I'm not trying to pick a fight or correct anyone but......


Eddie cleaned up and moved WSU forward, big time. 2 NCAAs and 1 NIT in 3 years. Then he goes to Vandy where they lost ALL the time and in 4 seasons went to 2 NCAAs (1 sweet 16) 2 NITs (1 championship), won the SEC (Vandy's only SEC championship from 75-current) and was the National Coach of the Year. Then he went to South Carolina (where they lost ALL THE TIME) and in 8 years went to 2 NCAAs and 2 NITs, won the SEC (USC's ONLY SEC championship ever) and had the ONLY 2 winning SEC records in USC history (19 seasons).

Eddie Fogler is either the best coaching magician of all time or can coach the game like few ever have (hint: it's the latter).

:wsu_posters: :goshocks: :posterwu: :posterwsu:

[Zardoz]

Re: Fogler

It's been a long time ago, but if memory serves me correctly, most of what Fogler did here was with talent that Smithson recruited before him. I remember thinking that was the case for years after that! Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've had a strong feeling about him in that regard for years.

A little of both. The best players during that time were John Cooper and Paul Guffrovich, both Eddie recruits & both top 40 players in the program all time, imho.

Certainly Hank Carr and the Praylow twins had a lot to do with Eddie's success and they were all Gene's recruits. However, they all were made to be FAR better players under Eddie than they ever were or would have been under Gene.

And Gus Santos(sp?). Who recuited The Big Show?

[WuDrWu]

Re: Fogler

And Gus Santos(sp?). Who recuited The Big Show?

Ah, Gustavo Santos. Loved Gus.....he got screwed in the Wendy's Classic.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DEEDA163AF932A25750C0A961948260

Gus was a Gene recruit and was reformed by Eddie (see the article above).

Paul Wight was all Mike Cohen.

Eddie was responsible for Phil Mendelson and Darrin Dugger though.

[GoShockers89]

Fogler recruited just fine. Gaylon Nickerson and other defections after his departure were much more damaging than people realize. Guffrovich, Cooper and others were excellent products of his tenure.

Through a series of bad luck (Cooper's injury), defections (Nickerson et al), a neglect of recruiting local talent (Adrian Griffin, John Ontjes, Johnny Murdock, etc), and absolutely horrific game coaching and player development, Mike Cohen set the program back nearly a decade in his 3 long years.

[BostonWu]

Re: Fogler

And Gus Santos(sp?). Who recuited The Big Show?

Ah, Gustavo Santos. Loved Gus.....he got screwed in the Wendy's Classic.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DEEDA163AF932A25750C0A961948260

Gus was a Gene recruit and was reformed by Eddie (see the article above).

Paul Wight was all Mike Cohen.

Eddie was responsible for Phil Mendelson and Darrin Dugger though.

How'd you forget John Felter?

And I can't remember if Rick Conn was a Fogler or Cohen recruit.

[C0|dB|00ded]

Fogler used to love to bore the hell out of us with his technical discussions of possessions and other coach-speak minutia, didn't he?

Besides that, he never really tried very hard to fit-in as the hometown guy, in this, the biggest hometown in America. He was always very guarded, in public anyway.

Things I like about Gregg - he's not afraid to let his guard down at times and seems to represent Wichita well for himself, his family, and his players.

--'85.

1)Well, I can't say that he bored me. I am a fan of that "coach speak minutia" and I always enjoyed every minute I spent with Eddie. I'm certain that being a coach at the time had a lot to do with it. I would have killed or died to be a grad assistant under Eddie.

2)No doubt Eddie was too guarded in public and it was a SHAME because if you got to know him, he had a great dry wit and was fun to be around. Again, sadly most of the public never saw that side of him.

Also, like most really good coaches, he was supremely confident (some would call arrogant) and that was tough for many to deal with.

Lastly, Eddie had NO long term plans to stay in Wichita. Although he enjoyed his time, this was always considered a stepping stone to the next job and he never doubted he would be stepping up soon.


Your last comment is why Gregg was popular from day 1 and why he will obtain rock star status when the program reaches the heights we all expect.

He likes to be around other people, he has a GREAT personality, he isn't afraid to speak his mind and he backs down from NO ONE.

He belongs here, he is planning for the long term and he 100% believes he can achieve the loftiest goals right here at WSU.

There will be no "that's as good as we can do here" comments from Gregg.

There will be no "that's as good as we can do here" comments from Gregg.

I sensed that about GG when I first learned that he might come to WSU. His long tenure at Winthrop and his fiercely competitive teams typified the kind of program culture where everyone from the coach down to the players truly believes...

GG seems like the type of guy that will stick with WSU, kind of like how I felt about Randy. If GG is able to get us consistently into the Dance and make some noise when he is there, I think he will feel very comfortable at WSU. He is not as brown-nosing as Turgeon was, so the idea of kissing up to a bunch of blue-blooded BCS boosters all the time probably doesn't appeal to GG.

While many of the faithful Shockers who fill our lower seats are the refined and the wealthy, our ultra diehards are the tough middle-class variety who line the upper seats and go to war with the team every game, bringing their voices with them. These are the type of fans that you see at a Detroit Red Wings game or a Philadelphia Flyers game. These guys (and gals) are real, they bleed their team's colors, and they can relate to the attitude that GG carries.

Both Randy and GG are what I would call "upper-level" coaches. They are kinda rough, really tough, and have honest intentions. These are the kind of people that stick with you. These are the type of people that would (and GG did) turn down a BCS job to stay at their "lower" job because they are committed. These are good people.


T


...8)

[WstateU]

Fogler used to love to bore the hell out of us with his technical discussions of possessions and other coach-speak minutia, didn't he?

Besides that, he never really tried very hard to fit-in as the hometown guy, in this, the biggest hometown in America. He was always very guarded, in public anyway.

Things I like about Gregg - he's not afraid to let his guard down at times and seems to represent Wichita well for himself, his family, and his players.

--'85.

1)Well, I can't say that he bored me. I am a fan of that "coach speak minutia" and I always enjoyed every minute I spent with Eddie. I'm certain that being a coach at the time had a lot to do with it. I would have killed or died to be a grad assistant under Eddie.

2)No doubt Eddie was too guarded in public and it was a SHAME because if you got to know him, he had a great dry wit and was fun to be around. Again, sadly most of the public never saw that side of him.

Also, like most really good coaches, he was supremely confident (some would call arrogant) and that was tough for many to deal with.

Lastly, Eddie had NO long term plans to stay in Wichita. Although he enjoyed his time, this was always considered a stepping stone to the next job and he never doubted he would be stepping up soon.


Your last comment is why Gregg was popular from day 1 and why he will obtain rock star status when the program reaches the heights we all expect.

He likes to be around other people, he has a GREAT personality, he isn't afraid to speak his mind and he backs down from NO ONE.

He belongs here, he is planning for the long term and he 100% believes he can achieve the loftiest goals right here at WSU.

There will be no "that's as good as we can do here" comments from Gregg.

There will be no "that's as good as we can do here" comments from Gregg.

I sensed that about GG when I first learned that he might come to WSU. His long tenure at Winthrop and his fiercely competitive teams typified the kind of program culture where everyone from the coach down to the players truly believes...

GG seems like the type of guy that will stick with WSU, kind of like how I felt about Randy. If GG is able to get us consistently into the Dance and make some noise when he is there, I think he will feel very comfortable at WSU. He is not as brown-nosing as Turgeon was, so the idea of kissing up to a bunch of blue-blooded BCS boosters all the time probably doesn't appeal to GG.

While many of the faithful Shockers who fill our lower seats are the refined and the wealthy, our ultra diehards are the tough middle-class variety who line the upper seats and go to war with the team every game, bringing their voices with them. These are the type of fans that you see at a Detroit Red Wings game or a Philadelphia Flyers game. These guys (and gals) are real, they bleed their team's colors, and they can relate to the attitude that GG carries.

Both Randy and GG are what I would call "upper-level" coaches. They are kinda rough, really tough, and have honest intentions. These are the kind of people that stick with you. These are the type of people that would (and GG did) turn down a BCS job to stay at their "lower" job because they are committed. These are good people.


T


...8)

Hey, hey... cut that out now! Work hard, aim high, have a dream, and you too can become "refined and wealthy". :D

:good: :good:

[WuDrWu]

Re: Fogler

How'd you forget John Felter?

And I can't remember if Rick Conn was a Fogler or Cohen recruit.

Both GREAT young men.

Both seriously less talented than Matt Clark.


I am very happy to see Mason return to the program and I hope dad gets to enjoy some successes through his son that he didn't get to enjoy himself. He deserves it......great GREAT guy.

[ShockTalk]

Doc - Never said Folger couldn't coach or even make players better than they were before (except for Sasha). However, I have a problem with his recruiting efforts at WSU. I believe that 4 of the 6 main players in his last year at WSU were Gene's recruits, each year his overall and conference record dropped, the NIT appearence was in his last year, Grayer started out as a 3 was playing some 1 by his senior year, and left us with no regular taller than 6'7" for the next year.

[shockball]

Rick Conn was a Cohen recruit. His last year here he put on 20lbs during the season. Cohen thought he was getting a diamond in the rough with Conn being a coache's son. What he got was the son of an obese coach. His typical performance was he would start limping as soon as he turned the ball over. One of my all time favorites.

[ShockTalk]

Doc - As for USC, Folger's first year there was only USC 3rd year in the SEC and I believe they've completed 17 years in the SEC, not 19. Of those 17 years, Fogler coached 8, Dave Odom 7, and Newton (who Fogler replaced) 2. Odom had 1 NCAA appearance, 3 NITs with one runner-up and two Championships, and an overall winning record 40 points higher than Fogler.

Before Newton's two years, all three of the previous coaches over a 27 year period had a higher overall winning percentage than Fogler. So let's not sound like he went into a situation without a good basketball tradition.

Fogler's last three years at USC were 38-53 overall and 14-34 in conference with having a winning record only 3 of his 8 years. His success at USC was very MT-like except he didn't know when to leave that time.

Quite frankly, I can think of a lot of coaches who have coached this well and a good number who have coached better.

[ShockTalk]

Regarding Vanderbilt, his first three years there, not counting postseason (he did go 5-0 winning NIT), he was 48-40 overall and 24-28 in the SEC. His predecessor, CM Newton in his last two years, was 37-23 overall (not counting 2-2 post-season), 17-19 in the SEC with two NCAA appearences (including a sweet 16) and a NIT before that. Not exactly going into a bad situation.

He did have a break-out year in year 4 and deserved all the credit he received. Then promptly left for another SEC team. I believe he was more successful at Vanderbilt than USC, both SEC schools.

I'm not saying anything about the man personally. Didn't know him. I'm sure I can trust your evaluation of this and do.

[Aargh]

I had to go back and look to make sure I was really in the "Crowd" thread.

I'm not certain what KSU's situation is now, but when they hired Huggins, they went on a massive season-ticket drive. After they sold 7,000 or so season tickets and realized that was all they were going to get, they reserved every remaining seat for students (about 6,000) and claimed they were sold out for the season.

One huge difference between KSU, WSU, and KU for student attendance is that there are jobs in Wichita. WSU probably has a larger percentage of students who work while going to college.

WSU also (probably) has a way higher percentage of students going to college in the town where they grew up. The kids who grew up in Wichita and go to WSU already have their habits established of where they go, what they do, who they hang out with, etc. before they enroll at WSU. It's hard to convince them to change what they've grown up with and go to basketball games.

At KSU and KU, more students are in a completely new environment and "college life" is about all that's available to them.

There are a lot of reasons WSU has difficulty getting students to go to games.