Anyone going to cover the old ball coach's schedule?

[SubGod22]

That really doesn't work thought ShockRef. While playing at the Cow Palace he was recruiting players to the unfinished Chuck. The recruits from that time have even said as much.

[BOBB]

I'll wade into this late, not to take a shot at Turgeon, but to get Randy's back. I'm not sure Randy would have gotten it done in CKA, but new facilities, or the promise thereof, wouldn't have hurt. Randy's methods rubbed kids the wrong way and probably had more to do with his demise than anything. Randy did improve the program from the Scott Thompson/Mike Cohen eras. I was sad to see Randy go, but it was probably necessary. Randy is a true Shocker through and through.

[rZ]

...you might be understandably bitter about how Turgeon left some things around here, but your revisionist's history of what he accomplished during his tenure as the leader of WSU men's basketball is borderline lunacy...

Well said rjl. Some people have a complete inability to process an objective thought, and no amount of factual evidence can ever change that. These same people will ignore the fact that MT raised our basketball program from the ashes, instead forever believing that he s**t in their shoes.

Most reasonable people can see the foundation created by MT and what that means for future Shockers. They may not like how MT left but they respect what he did nonetheless.

[SubGod22]

There are some of us who have praised him for lifting WSU from what it was but also say that many on here hold him up too much for what he did. He had many shortcomings that irritated many of us and I still feel that he didn't do enough to warrant such high praise from so many.

[ShockRef]

[quote="SubGod22"]That really doesn't work thought ShockRef. While playing at the Cow Palace he was recruiting players to the unfinished Chuck. The recruits from that time have even said as much.
Sub,
Agreed. Just reaffirming the point the MT did not have Taj Mahal-like facilities to attract top level recruits during the majority of his time here. 8)

[ABC]

Please please please please stop this nonsense that Randy would have achieved what Mark did, if only he had the facilities and resources.

That is simply an undefendable position.

I witnessed Randy's top assistant, Carlos Thuggins, challenge opposing players and coaches to fight, on the floor of Henry Levitt Arena.

I heard Randy talk about a 13 point loss to Oklahoma State all year long as if it were a victory.

Do you remember the recruits we had coming in? Only from Gene Smithson's Florida JuCo!!!

If Randy had been given the four more years, I cannot see how anything would have gotten better - especially given how much better the MVC was during the subsequent years.

How people can put RS above MT is beyond me. That tells me that this is not about WSU but about some other deep seeded psychosis that is difficult, if not impossible, to explain.

MT had jets to go to games b/c he could raise the money to do so.

Someone please explain why Randy couldn't raise the money to do the same?

I too was disappointed the MT left but I think WSU will have more success under GM.

I ran into a friend of MT's dad here in Topeka the other day and he asked if I was sad that MT left.

I said no; I think it was probably the right move for both parties. This person said that MT's dad was thrilled with the move. My reply was only that we are thrilled to have a coach that wants to be at WSU and that I think GM will have more success at WSU than MT did.

My point is that WSU fans do not need to take any crap from those who think MT "moved up" but neither should we diminish what he did or for God's sake pump up what Randy did or could have done.

[WstateU]

Please please please please stop this nonsense that Randy would have achieved what Mark did, if only he had the facilities and resources.

That is simply an undefendable position.

I witnessed Randy's top assistant, Carlos Thuggins, challenge opposing players and coaches to fight, on the floor of Henry Levitt Arena.

I heard Randy talk about a 13 point loss to Oklahoma State all year long as if it were a victory.

Do you remember the recruits we had coming in? Only from Gene Smithson's Florida JuCo!!!

If Randy had been given the four more years, I cannot see how anything would have gotten better - especially given how much better the MVC was during the subsequent years.

How people can put RS above MT is beyond me. That tells me that this is not about WSU but about some other deep seeded psychosis that is difficult, if not impossible, to explain.

MT had jets to go to games b/c he could raise the money to do so.

Someone please explain why Randy couldn't raise the money to do the same?

I too was disappointed the MT left but I think WSU will have more success under GM.

I ran into a friend of MT's dad here in Topeka the other day and he asked if I was sad that MT left.

I said no; I think it was probably the right move for both parties. This person said that MT's dad was thrilled with the move. My reply was only that we are thrilled to have a coach that wants to be at WSU and that I think GM will have more success at WSU than MT did.

My point is that WSU fans do not need to take any crap from those who think MT "moved up" but neither should we diminish what he did or for God's sake pump up what Randy did or could have done.

My vote for post of the week. :good:

[vbird53]

Please please please please stop this nonsense that Randy would have achieved what Mark did, if only he had the facilities and resources.

That is simply an undefendable position.

I witnessed Randy's top assistant, Carlos Thuggins, challenge opposing players and coaches to fight, on the floor of Henry Levitt Arena.

I heard Randy talk about a 13 point loss to Oklahoma State all year long as if it were a victory.

Do you remember the recruits we had coming in? Only from Gene Smithson's Florida JuCo!!!

If Randy had been given the four more years, I cannot see how anything would have gotten better - especially given how much better the MVC was during the subsequent years.

How people can put RS above MT is beyond me. That tells me that this is not about WSU but about some other deep seeded psychosis that is difficult, if not impossible, to explain.

MT had jets to go to games b/c he could raise the money to do so.

Someone please explain why Randy couldn't raise the money to do the same?

I too was disappointed the MT left but I think WSU will have more success under GM.

I ran into a friend of MT's dad here in Topeka the other day and he asked if I was sad that MT left.

I said no; I think it was probably the right move for both parties. This person said that MT's dad was thrilled with the move. My reply was only that we are thrilled to have a coach that wants to be at WSU and that I think GM will have more success at WSU than MT did.

My point is that WSU fans do not need to take any crap from those who think MT "moved up" but neither should we diminish what he did or for God's sake pump up what Randy did or could have done.

Great post.

The point from above that I put in bold is the only thing I disagree with. Randy did not have Jim Schaus as AD throughout his tenure to do the dirty work for him. That building was going to be built regardless of head coach. We needed someone to rally around, and it happened to be Mark Turgeon, but CKA was inevitable.

Randy rose the ticket sales from the low 6000s to near packed during his tenure. I'm pretty sure he could have sold out the brand new building also. He just had poor timing.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm not a Randy apologist, I just think Coach Turgeon had everything handed to him to make this program a success that were not there in the past, and he made the most of the opportunity.

[TurFin]

A couple of responses and then a story.

ABC...Mark's dad is happy for Mark. Whoever you talked to that said Mark's Dad was "thrilled" with the move must have been making assumptions. To say the move was thrilling for anyone within the Turgeon family is a stretch. The family had a lot invested emotionally in WSU. We were happy for Mark on the move, but it wasn't without some serious remorse for WSU as well.

Some have referred to Mark as Fogler-esque. Mark and Ann were in the middle of the process of building their dream home in Wichita and Mark had purchased Chief's season tickets for him and Will for this coming year. He had no agenda for leaving Wichita. In fact people that brought it up to him were usually given a dirty snear. The state of the A&M program, AD Bill Byrne and Mark's prior working relationship, and the fact Mark already had in-roads with that recruiting area were the perfect storm. I know it's hard to believe, but it's as simple as that.

vbird53...If you think Mark was handed all that stuff then you have no idea about the work he did behind the scenes. A lot of what WSU was able to do is directly attributable to Schaus, but it was all made possible with the hiring of Mark and his work off the court as well as on. Recruits are 17 and 18 yr old kids that live in the now and want the now. Any benefit Mark got from having the plans for Koch to sell to recruits...Were negated by the reality of what his staff was showing them at that time. It literally cost WSU recruits.

subgod22...As you believe some give him to much credit...some like you will never understand what Mark brought to the table and the work needed to create a cultural change around the program. This wasn't a job just anyone could have come in and done well. It first had to be someone that could see what it could become...because at first glance it wasn't a job that was going to reel in anyone not willing and prepared to absolutely run himself into the ground for at least the first 5 years of the job. I'm not exagerating on that either. Second...Schaus had to find someone that had a plan of attack on rebuilding, could develop and market that plan to financial supporters, not just his boss, and then could implement that plan. At the time Schaus was looking for a coach...He could probably have counted on a couple of fingers the people willing and able to pull that off. He made the right choice. So before diminishing what he accomplished understand that it was more than just the basketball games...it was a project on a large scale with several different layers that you as an average fan don't get to see or appreciate.

Just to touch on what I posted above...My youngest daughter still cries at the very mention of Wichita and has to be constantly assured that we will attend games and remain WSU fans. The bond doesn't get broken regardless of the move. Had he been coach at New Mexico rather than WSU it probably would have been an easier break, but our family was able to drive to Wichita whenever we wanted. That provided us with an opportunity to grow an attachment that probably would have not occured anywhere else.

Being happy with GM doesn't need to coincide with tearing down MT.

In the end I think change is good for business and in the case of building programs within college athletics...it sometimes is essential for all parties.

[shocks771]

Thanks TurFin. I know the move was hard on Mark & Ann and while I didn't always agree with Mark's philosophies I will always be grateful to him for how he turned our program around. Anyone who doesn't give him credit for that is very short-sighted and obviously hadn't been around the program during the 10 years before Mark's arrival. I think the move will be good for both Mark and WSU and I wish him nothing but the best at A&M.

[shockball]

Mark and Tad worked their butts off when they were here. They accomplished quite a lot. Thanks and best of luck to both to both of these very good men.

[WuDrWu]

[quote="TurFin"]A couple of responses and then a story.

ABC...Mark's dad is happy for Mark. Whoever you talked to that said Mark's Dad was "thrilled" with the move must have been making assumptions. To say the move was thrilling for anyone within the Turgeon family is a stretch. The family had a lot invested emotionally in WSU. We were happy for Mark on the move, but it wasn't without some serious remorse for WSU as well.

Some have referred to Mark as Fogler-esque. Mark and Ann were in the middle of the process of building their dream home in Wichita and Mark had purchased Chief's season tickets for him and Will for this coming year. He had no agenda for leaving Wichita. In fact people that brought it up to him were usually given a dirty snear. The state of the A&M program, AD Bill Byrne and Mark's prior working relationship, and the fact Mark already had in-roads with that recruiting area were the perfect storm. I know it's hard to believe, but it's as simple as that.

vbird53...If you think Mark was handed all that stuff then you have no idea about the work he did behind the scenes. A lot of what WSU was able to do is directly attributable to Schaus, but it was all made possible with the hiring of Mark and his work off the court as well as on. Recruits are 17 and 18 yr old kids that live in the now and want the now. Any benefit Mark got from having the plans for Koch to sell to recruits...Were negated by the reality of what his staff was showing them at that time. It literally cost WSU recruits.

subgod22...As you believe some give him to much credit...some like you will never understand what Mark brought to the table and the work needed to create a cultural change around the program. This wasn't a job just anyone could have come in and done well. It first had to be someone that could see what it could become...because at first glance it wasn't a job that was going to reel in anyone not willing and prepared to absolutely run himself into the ground for at least the first 5 years of the job. I'm not exagerating on that either. Second...Schaus had to find someone that had a plan of attack on rebuilding, could develop and market that plan to financial supporters, not just his boss, and then could implement that plan. At the time Schaus was looking for a coach...He could probably have counted on a couple of fingers the people willing and able to pull that off. He made the right choice. So before diminishing what he accomplished understand that it was more than just the basketball games...it was a project on a large scale with several different layers that you as an average fan don't get to see or appreciate.

Just to touch on what I posted above...My youngest daughter still cries at the very mention of Wichita and has to be constantly assured that we will attend games and remain WSU fans. The bond doesn't get broken regardless of the move. Had he been coach at New Mexico rather than WSU it probably would have been an easier break, but our family was able to drive to Wichita whenever we wanted. That provided us with an opportunity to grow an attachment that probably would have not occured anywhere else.

Being happy with GM doesn't need to coincide with tearing down MT.
In the end I think change is good for business and in the case of building programs within college athletics...it sometimes is essential for all parties.[quote="TurFin"]


Highlighted for emphasis and there ended the lesson. :clap:


:wsu_posters: :goshocks: :posterwu: :posterwsu:

[Aargh]

Thanks, TurFin. That showed a lot of class for someone so closely connected to Mark.

If when MT was hired he would have said, "Before I leave here, I'll get WSU a S16 and a top-10 national ranking", I think every WSU fan would have been thrilled. The consensus probably would have been that if Mark could achieve that before he left it would be awe-inspiring.

When Mark was hired a realistic goal of Shocker fans was to avoid the play-in round in St. Louis.

WSU fans aren't accustomed to what Mark did here. We all think of WSU having a basketball-rich tradition. In that entire basketball-rich tradition there are only 2 or 3 coaches who have been successful and left for a better job: Ralph Miller, Mark Turgeon and (maybe) Eddie Fogler.

If WSU continues to be successful, then we better get used to seeing coaches succeed and leave for better jobs. It's easy for "jilted" fans to put a former coach under a microscope. It will happen with every coaching change at every successful program. It's easy to look for flaws, find them and use them to justify a "good riddance" attitude about the departure.

It's pretty much like getting served with divorce papers and watching your ex-wife immediately hook up with a guy who's got more money, power and influence. There's going to be some animosity. You've got 2 choices: Accept it, move on and do the best with the rest of your life - or spend the rest of your life complaining about your ex, the way you were treated and how the b**** done you wrong.

The subject of this thread will probably die after a season or two. I wish this thread could die now, but it won't.

[rjl]

Without Mark, 75% of the posters on Shockernet probably wouldn't be here.

[vbird53]

This is some great discussion; college basketball and the Shocks have been a great part of my life for many, many years. Like many, I've been around through the not-so-great years of the '90s, and I've rarely missed a game. It's been tough since my move to the KC area to keep connected (thank God for Shockernet, Shockervision, and Internet radio).

Because of my affinity for Notre Dame Football, I think I can offer a different perspective: A fan base is not always going to agree on everything.

We had a great coach in Mark Turgeon that chose to leave for another program. Mark provided the Shox with outcomes that would not have existed without him, and I'd like to reiterate the last point I made from above...Mark made the most of the opportunity that Wichita State provided him.