Generation Z, Millenials, The Free Market, and Our Basketball Product

[pie n eye]

It's not "well are you the coach, young whippersnapper?" but it's close. Thanks for delivering regardless!

You're welcome.

Please tell me, how does "we should schedule better" qualify as critical thinking?

[Heinro]

i remember in 1992 or 1993 Bama came to Wichita and we beat them. We were excited and went wild. Today, our spoiled fans who take this team for granted would say that Bama sucks and I won't go unless we play a good team. After all we know that NotrevDame wants to come to Wichita and Bama sucks. I guess I'll just stay home. A Top 40 team is coming to IBA? Forget that! I don't want to walk or I won't pay for that game. This is a real SPECIAL SPOILED bunch of fans.

This comment is so off base. Koch salivates at the likes of having Texas Tech, Alabama, UNLV, etc. come into town. Were those teams good? Not usually, but Koch arena shows up very nicely for those games.

[pie n eye]

The most heavily attended game this year in terms of student turnout was South Carolina State.

Maybe they were confused and thought Frank Martin was coming to town.

[ShockerFever]

This comment is so off base. Koch salivates at the likes of having Texas Tech, Alabama, UNLV, etc. come into town. Were those teams good? Not usually, but Koch arena shows up very nicely for those games.

I was told UNLV is an NBA developmental team so "not usually" doesn't apply there.

[ShockerFever]

The most heavily attended game this year in terms of student turnout was South Carolina State.

Maybe they were confused and thought Frank Martin was coming to town.

Wait, so South Carolina State is a better "name draw" than say a St. Louis? That kinda kills a lot of points being made by the "I only go out to see who WSU is playing" crowd.

[shockmonster]

Koch salivates at the likes of having Texas Tech, Alabama, UNLV, etc. come into town. Were those teams good? Not usually, but Koch arena shows up very nicely for those games.

Sorry Heinro. I'm not buying all of the excuses I'm hearing.

I have witnessed much of the history of Shocker basketball. We were "winning" (about 12 years of it in the decade of the 50s-60s) and it went away soon after Ralph left. We were rarely a factor for 15+ years until 1981.

That lasted for 10 years with some marginal years in between, before the darkness of losing enveloped Wichita. We then lost for 12-13 years prior to Turgeon taking us to the NIT. We went to the NCAA once and Turgeon left.

Marshall started off with several years of losing basketball before we hit paydirt while winning the NIT. We ha now had five years of the golden age, and Shocker fans are once again, falling asleep. We are starting a new, slow slide into the abyss. This slide is just beginning, and we don't realize what is happening yet. Our coach and players are sensing that something is happening, but just as a frog doesn't feel the water in the pot warming to a boil, Shocker fans are behind the curve. While we are currently in the "golden age", we are at a crossroads. Which way will we go now?

I'm sorry for my poor job of writing, and this is written partially with my tongue in cheek, but there is some truth too. Most of this history was made up of times of losing. :)

[ArtVandalay]

Simple explanation. When I was at WSU (03-07), Shocks were hoping to compete for an NIT birth most years. Playing against other teams with the same aspirations made for competitive balance. 06 was incredible with Sweet 16 run from no where. If you wanted to watch the Shocks, you had to get a ticket and go to Koch, which was just reopened in 03.

Marshall comes along. Great things happen, every game is available on TV or some media device. Today, bad timing as schedule looked strong before the year, but those teams have not lived up to their end of the deal. WSU much better than hoping for NIT, and the outcome is known before tip-off and St Louis scores 9 points in the first half. Catch the first half on TV and still have time for fill in the blank. Attendance struggles.

People have much more in terms of entertainment options now. WSU not selling out for two foregone blowouts is not an isolated event. NFL, MLB, etc are all struggling and evolving on how to keep butts in seats. The Braves are in a new stadium this next season, 20 years after their last stadium debut, all in the name of "fan experience".

As the competition increases, so will attendance. I don't like it. I've been to most the home games (without season tickets, which I do like in that I can get tickets), but realize that casual fans out number the diehards.

People will come, Ray. People will most definitely come.

[BOBB]

The most heavily attended game this year in terms of student turnout was South Carolina State.

Maybe they were confused and thought Frank Martin was coming to town.

Regular season home opener.

[Shocker1976]

Sorry Heinro. I'm not buying all of the excuses I'm hearing.

I have witnessed much of the history of Shocker basketball. We were "winning" (about 12 years of it in the decade of the 50s-60s) and it went away soon after Ralph left. We were rarely a factor for 15+ years until 1981.

That lasted for 10 years with some marginal years in between, before the darkness of losing enveloped Wichita. We then lost for 12-13 years prior to Turgeon taking us to the NIT. We went to the NCAA once and Turgeon left.

Marshall started off with several years of losing basketball before we hit paydirt while winning the NIT. We ha now had five years of the golden age, and Shocker fans are once again, falling asleep. We are starting a new, slow slide into the abyss. This slide is just beginning, and we don't realize what is happening yet. Our coach and players are sensing that something is happening, but just as a frog doesn't feel the water in the pot warming to a boil, Shocker fans are behind the curve. While we are currently in the "golden age", we are at a crossroads. Which way will we go now?

Sorry Monster I am not "buying" most of your post. You are correct the Shockers were "winning" when Ralph Miller left. Unfortunately, WSU replicated the Beaker's coaching mistake (hiring Dick Harp to replace the retiring Phog Allen) by making Gary Thompson head coach. While WSU was quicker to replace Thompson (6 years) than the Beakers replaced Harp (8 years), WSU failed to replace GT with a coach possessing Ralph Miller's skill set by hiring Harry Miller (7 years as HC).

IMO after 13 years with a HC of limited skills, WSU hired Gene Smithson (1978-86) and Eddie Fogler (1986-89) who gave the Shockers a decade of quality coaching. Then back to the abyss with head coaches Cohen (1989-92), Thompson (1992-96) and Randy Smithson (1996-2000). In 2000 Mark Turgeon was hired and the Shockers were on the road to recovery; HC3G's hiring in 2007 returned the Shockers to the level of Ralph Miller coaching and the past decade has been a great ride for Shocker fans.

Please note that HC3G did not start "...off with several years of losing basketball"; in his first year the Shockers finished 11-20, year two the Shockers finished 17-17, year 3 the Shockers were 25-10 and in year 4 the Shockers won the NIT with a record of 29-8.

IMO there is no "something is happening"; to remain relevant on the National MBB stage, WSU should do everything possible to keep HC3G until he retires and then replace him with someone possessing equivalent or superior coaching skills.

[shockmonster]

Sorry Monster I am not "buying" most of your post. You are correct the Shockers were "winning" when Ralph Miller left. Unfortunately, WSU replicated the Beaker's coaching mistake (hiring Dick Harp to replace the retiring Phog Allen) by making Gary Thompson head coach. While WSU was quicker to replace Thompson (6 years) than the Beakers replaced Harp (8 years), WSU failed to replace GT with a coach possessing Ralph Miller's skill set by hiring Harry Miller (7 years as HC).

IMO after 13 years with a HC of limited skills, WSU hired Gene Smithson (1978-86) and Eddie Fogler (1986-89) who gave the Shockers a decade of quality coaching. Then back to the abyss with head coaches Cohen (1989-92), Thompson (1992-96) and Randy Smithson (1996-2000). In 2000 Mark Turgeon was hired and the Shockers were on the road to recovery; HC3G's hiring in 2007 returned the Shockers to the level of Ralph Miller coaching and the past decade has been a great ride for Shocker fans.

Please note that HC3G did not start "...off with several years of losing basketball"; in his first year the Shockers finished 11-20, year two the Shockers finished 17-17, year 3 the Shockers were 25-10 and in year 4 the Shockers won the NIT with a record of 29-8.

IMO there is no "something is happening"; to remain relevant on the National MBB stage, WSU should do everything possible to keep HC3G until he retires and then replace him with someone possessing equivalent or superior coaching skills.

Ralph was one of the Top two coaches of all time at WSU. He wasn't treated well and moved on. You are right that he was followed by two bad hires. Nothing is guaranteed to continue.

Smithson could recruit with anyone. He was not a great coach but with the players we had, we won. Gene is in the conversation (probably is) for the third best coach in Shocker history. Fogler was a very good game coach with limited recruiting skills. This wasn't the school for him and he left.
Three bad coaching hires guaranteed the slide into the abyss. Scott Thompson was a hot commodity, pursued by several, and paid a lot of money and couldn't stop the slide. The story is that there are no guarantees.

Gregg is here now. The best Coach in Shocker basketball history. He is a great fit. When he leaves, there are no guarantees.

The moral of this story is that we are taking winning for granted with a "oh well" there are great excuses for why attendance is down even though we still have a Top 40 team. Don't take it for granted. No guarantees.

[Shocker1976]

Ralph was one of the Top two coaches of all time at WSU. He wasn't treated well and moved on. You are right that he was followed by two bad hires. Nothing is guaranteed to continue.

Smithson could recruit with anyone. He was not a great coach but with the players we had, we won. Gene is in the conversation (probably is) for the third best coach in Shocker history. Fogler was a very good game coach with limited recruiting skills. This wasn't the school for him and he left.
Three bad coaching hires guaranteed the slide into the abyss. Scott Thompson was a hot commodity, pursued by several, and paid a lot of money and couldn't stop the slide. The story is that there are no guarantees.

Gregg is here now. The best Coach in Shocker basketball history. He is a great fit. When he leaves, there are no guarantees.

The moral of this story is that we are taking winning for granted with a "oh well" there are great excuses for why attendance is down even though we still have a Top 40 team. Don't take it for granted. No guarantees.

Well said and should be repeated daily by the Shocker faithful; IMO Smithson was comparable to Ted Owens, always had great athletes but lack of coaching skills limited his teams' success. Hiring and retaining a quality coach is the primary constant among the "Blue Bloods"

Kansas - Phog Allen for 37 seasons (forced to retire in 1957 by the KU Board of Regent after successfully recruiting Wilt Chamberlain

Duke - Coach K in 35 seasons and counting put Duke among the elite

Kentucky - Adolph Rupp recorded 42 seasons with the Wildcats

North Carolina - Dean Smith 36 seasons followed Frank McGuire's 9 successful seasons

UCLA had John Wooden for 27 seasons and Indiana retained Bobby Knight for 29 seasons; if you consider these two schools as blue bloods.

If Ralph Miller would have stayed in Wichita until he retired (like Phog, Rupp and Smith) the Shockers would have had a quality coach for 38 consecutive years. Thus no exposure to the coaches who took the Shockers into the abyss rather than the stars. I don't have a clue what coach WSU would have hired in 1989 to replace RM but I am confident he would have been far superior to those coaches that were hired post Fogler.

"Ifs and buts" can be killers.