Rafters

[Cdizzle]

Forget assist:turnover. Fred has a positive steal:turnover ratio.

He had more steals than turnovers over 4 years, as the primary ball-handler.

That is nuttier than squirrel poop.

[ShockTalk]

For as great as Fred VanVleet was for our program. Let's not be so quick to discredit Warren Armstrong.

20th all time in points
7th all time in rebounding (Averaged 10.8 rpg in his career)
3rd all time in assists (7.5 apg his senior year and a record 5.5 apg for his career)
Four Triple Doubles
Steals weren't recorded then
3x All Valley
Drafted in both the NBA and ABA Draft
Former ABA Champion, Rookie of the Year, All Star and Finals MVP

Not bad for a 6-2 guard who played 78 games in just three years.

I don't believe Warren was a PG. You will find him listed as a forward, forward-guard, or guard depending on what team he was playing with.

[AndShock]

Might as well wait so we can do Cle, Fred, Ron, Markis, and Landry all in the same night.

[WstateU]

Cliff Levingston was also also on the Playboy 1st team All-American team, for what that is worth.

Yes he was; and there were other enjoyable things included in that Playboy issue. :)

[ShockTalk]

Cleanthony is what made the truly "great" shocker teams of recent (2013,2014) what they were. With him being a walking match-up it took so much pressure off of Ron and Fred on the offensive side of the floor.

To not have his number retired, excuse my french, would be bull ****.

Ron and Fred are home runs.

Retire jersey's, not numbers. This isn't that hard.

The issue of being a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team All American among the "consensus status" teams as a "minimum" went out the door with Levingston. Technically, the Helms was not part of the "consensus" All American during Littleton's time either, however, like Levingston, both were Honorable Mention with the AP. Therefore, Baker and Miller "qualify" just as much, FVV and Early more so.

I think the "All American" status thing should be a guide, not a qualifier. I also believe, jerseys, not numbers be retired. I don't want to make it "easier" to have one's jersey hung, I just don't believe all players through all times playing for different Shocker teams can be legitimately boxed into a one or two qualifier only.

Edit:

[Veritas]

The issue of being a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd team All American among the "consensus status" teams as a "minimum" went out the door with Levingston. Technically, the Helms was not part of the "consensus" All American during Littleton's time either, however, like Levingston, both were Honorable Mention with the AP. Therefore, Baker and Miller "qualify" just as much, FVV and Early more so.

I think the "All American" status thing should be a guide, not a qualifier. I also believe, jerseys, not numbers be retired. I don't want to make it "easier" to have one's jersey hung, I just don't believe all players through all times playing for different Shocker teams can be legitimately boxed into a one or two qualifier only.

While I'm at it. Shame on you committee members that do not have Robert Elmore in the Shocker Hall of Fame.

I thought Robert was inducted about 2 years ago. His brother Len was on the broadcast.

[60Shock]

Cliff Levingston was also also on the Playboy 1st team All-American team, for what that is worth.

If it resulted in Cliff's being awarded a Play Girl of the Month, it would of been very worth wild.

[60Shock]

Schools go on a nice run once in awhile and make a Sweet Sixteen almost every year. VERY rarely do they go on a 4-year run like those two did.

Hopefully the next LeBron comes to WSU, goes undefeated, wins Wooden Award, and leads the Shox to the national championship. That way his number can be retired ;)

And that is exactly why the Number of Years played ( one, two, three or four) does not compare as to what the player actually achieved in contributing to the success of the overall program in the years he played.

Not only was Cle outstanding during his two regular seasons, he was supurb in both of our two narrow losses in the two NCAA tournament years he participated.

[Topshock]

Many good arguments presented in this thread. If Marshall is still here in the next 4 or 5 years all that will really matter is if he want's the numbers/jerseys retired. It won't matter what I or anyone else thinks. If I remember correctly that is the primary reason Cliff Levingston was added to the group. Randy Smithson wanted it to happen.

[Kung Wu]

Tekele: Lefty Driessel Defensive All-American, Defensive Player of the Year Finalist

Fred: It's not like we have to guess how important Fred is to us. Without him, this year alone, we were absolutely screwed and unable to compete at a top-25 level. He comes back and then suddenly we can.

What's with this "singular" nonsense anyway? That's like saying Carr shouldn't have his jersey retired because Levingston was on his team. And Levingston shouldn't have his jersey retired because McDaniel was on his team. And McDaniel ... [blah,blah,blah] ... and so on in some orgy of circular logic.

[choida]

Only Ron and Fred... You gotta be here and do some pretty super hero ****

[1972Shocker]

I thought Robert was inducted about 2 years ago. His brother Len was on the broadcast.

You are correct. Inducted in 2014.

http://goshockers.com/news/2014/1/18/209378762.aspx

[wufan]

The current qualifier is to be on an All-American team, not HM. Every AA since 1955 has had their jersey retired. Cliff is the only player not to make a consensus team, putting him on par with Baker for awards. Fred and Cle should absolutely be retired. I believe Ron should as well. Paul would be next closest, lowering the bar fairly significantly. Cotton and Armstrong were not on any AA list of any kind.

[Play Angry]

Fred, Cle and Ron all need to be up there. Plenty of numbers left for the current and future Shockers to wear, just toss those guys' digits up in the rafters.

I really dislike the arguments against Cleanthony's inclusion in the group. Cliff left early by choice. Cleanthony arrived late, yes, but stayed until graduation even though he had an opportunity to make the jump sooner. His AA and postseason credentials also dwarf Cliff's.

Those guys were at the core of the teams with the most impressive accomplishments in WSU history. They earned their qualifying individual accolades.

Give them their due. Each of them.

[1979Shocker]

Doubt you do all three on one night, because unless the third is Cle or Tekele, there will only be two.

Was Tekele ever an All-American? If not, he won't make it.