Coaches show

[bleednblackngold]

Can't disagree much; one should be in the top 10, while the other top 20. Jazon Perez will always be one of my favorites. Unfortunately, he wasn't athletic enough to play in the NBA.

Jason Perez was one of my favorites also! He kept my dreams of having a good team going during those awful years. But Ron's talent level and athleticism are not comparable. Just my opinion but Jason would be a role player at best on this team.

[WstateU]

Jason Perez was one of my favorites also! He kept my dreams of having a good team going during those awful years. But Ron's talent level and athleticism are not comparable. Just my opinion but Jason would be a role player at best on this team.

I think he'd surprise you; dude could shoot the rock and had a high on the court (off the court too) IQ.

[Dan]

There's always been an unwritten "all-american" status as a measuring stick for retiring jerseys. The only other player that should be in the discussion with this as requirement is Cleanthony Early.

[Dan]

On another note, I'd like to see a seperate banner honoring our team that went undefeated through the regular season with the name of every player on that team. We will likely never see that happen again.

[ShockerFever]

On another note, I'd like to see a seperate banner honoring our team that went undefeated through the regular season with the name of every player on that team. We will likely never see that happen again.

Agreed. That was a pretty big deal. I'm kinda surprised nothing was made of it. Well, then again...

[ShockTalk]

Can't disagree much; one should be in the top 10, while the other top 20. Jazon Perez will always be one of my favorites. Unfortunately, he wasn't athletic enough to play in the NBA.

Some others that made the pros: Jabali (7 seasons /447 games), Evans (8/562), Wiley (5/309), Bowman (6/261), Bobby Wilson (4/143). Do they get extra "points" for this or be especially high on our all time list. Some do, not so much with others. Not going to say this will happen, but what if FVV doesn't make it or only gets a cup of coffee in the bigs. Would that make him any less in anyone's eyes?

[Dan]

Some others that made the pros: Jabali (7 seasons /447 games), Evans (8/562), Wiley (5/309), Bowman (6/261), Bobby Wilson (4/143). Do they get extra "points" for this or be especially high on our all time list. Some do, not so much with others. Not going to say this will happen, but what if FVV doesn't make it or only gets a cup of coffee in the bigs. Would that make him any less in anyone's eyes?

I don't think it matters. Lots of great college players never make it to the highest level. I'd bet Nebraska football considers Tommy Frazier their greatest quarterback ever.

[WstateU]

Some others that made the pros: Jabali (7 seasons /447 games), Evans (8/562), Wiley (5/309), Bowman (6/261), Bobby Wilson (4/143). Do they get extra "points" for this or be especially high on our all time list. Some do, not so much with others. Not going to say this will happen, but what if FVV doesn't make it or only gets a cup of coffee in the bigs. Would that make him any less in anyone's eyes?

Fred's the best point guard to ever play here and has already made an All-American list (s); it sure wouldn't make a difference if I had a vote. No doubt Jabali's jersey should be retired. By the way, 'zero' "extra "points"" for Mr. Evans. I've always seen some similarities between Jason and Ron and how they play the game, but Ron is a few notches above Jason in my opinion (again, only my opinion... and that ain't worth much). :)

[im4wsu]

I don't think it matters. Lots of great college players never make it to the highest level. I'd bet Nebraska football considers Tommy Frazier their greatest quarterback ever.

I don't believe the post-Shocker career should have any bearing on the qualifications for being on the list of 100 greatest Shockers. What they did on the basketball court as a Shocker is what should be evaluated. Considering post-WSU play cannot possibly take into account the effect that the team one plays for and the teammates on that team have on the Shocker performance. For example, would Cle be considered better if he were able to play for a different NBA team?

[ShockTalk]

Jason Perez was one of my favorites also! He kept my dreams of having a good team going during those awful years. But Ron's talent level and athleticism are not comparable. Just my opinion but Jason would be a role player at best on this team.

I think he'd surprise you; dude could shoot the rock and had a high on the court (off the court too) IQ.

This. Jason is first in steals at WSU. FVV will probably pass him, but have a lower per game average. Ron will not catch him.

Jason's 3 point % was .376. Going in to this season FVV was .389 (is higher this year) and Ron was .377 (is lower this year).

Jason's overall FG% was .449. Fred's was .440 and Ron's .437 and both have been lower this season so far.

Jason was a first team all-MVC his senior year and 2nd team his junior and was runner up to Valley player of the Year his senior year. I believe at one time or another, I saw Jason play all 5 positions.

Jason would NOT be a roll player on this team!

[Dan]

This. Jason is first in steals at WSU. FVV will probably pass him, but have a lower per game average. Ron will not catch him.

Jason's 3 point % was .376. Going in to this season FVV was .389 (is higher this year) and Ron was .377 (is lower this year).

Jason's overall FG% was .449. Fred's was .440 and Ron's .437 and both have been lower this season so far.

Jason was a first team all-MVC his senior year and 2nd team his junior and was runner up to Valley player of the Year his senior year. I believe at one time or another, I saw Jason play all 5 positions.

Jason would NOT be a roll player on this team!

Interesting points here. Would Jason be a 2 or 3 on this team? Was he quick enough to be a wing in Marshall's system? We all saw how Evan struggled to guard the wing, I wonder how Perez would do.

[pinstripers]

Some others that made the pros: Jabali (7 seasons /447 games), Evans (8/562), Wiley (5/309), Bowman (6/261), Bobby Wilson (4/143). Do they get extra "points" for this or be especially high on our all time list. Some do, not so much with others. Not going to say this will happen, but what if FVV doesn't make it or only gets a cup of coffee in the bigs. Would that make him any less in anyone's eyes?

Probably shouldn't, but very well might. For example, if he were to go on and win multiple championships in the NBA, his legend would grow; and the reverse is true as well.

[1972Shocker]

There's always been an unwritten "all-american" status as a measuring stick for retiring jerseys. The only other player that should be in the discussion with this as requirement is Cleanthony Early.

Since it is an unwritten rule perhaps there is some wiggle room there. Cleanthony Early (6-8 forward) provides a great benchmark to compare a Shocker great who did receive AA honors and another Shocker great, Warren Armstrong/Jabali (6-2 guard) who did not. In Cleanthony's 2 years of varsity basketball he played in 75 games averaging 15.1 points, 5.7 rebounds and 0.7 assists. In Warren's 3 years of varsity basketball he played in 78 games averaging 16.7 points, 10.8 rebounds and 5.5 assists. Both Cleanthony (2x) and Warren (3x) were All-Valley First Team selections.

Cleanthony was the 36th overall pick in the 2014 NBA Draft. Warren was the 44th overall pick in the 1968 NBA Draft but decided to play in the upstart ABA. Cleanthony is still trying to find a niche in the NBA which may or may not work out. Warren had an okay ABA career averaging 17.1 PPG, 6.7 RPG and 5.3 APG in 7 years in the league. He was the ABA Rookie of the Year and the ABA Playoffs MVP in 1969 and he was a 4-time ABA All-Star and MVP of the 1973 ABA All-Star game. IIRC knee problems ended Warren's carreer -- how could he not have knee problems considering the number of times he descended to earth from heights very few men could reach). The ABA wasn't as deep as the NBA but they had some damn fine players.

BTW, the Valley was (I think) an 8-team league in the years Warren played and included Wichita State, Cincinnati, Louisville, Tulsa, Drake, Bradley, St. Louis and North Texas State. And Drake and Bradley were a far cry from what they are these days. Drake lost 82-85 to the eventual 1969 NCAA Champion UCLA Bruins in the semi-finals of the NCAA Tournament for example. North Texas was the "weakling" in that league. Louisville had a couple of decent players when Warren played. Some guy named Wes Unseld and another by the name of Butch Beard. Not quite the peak days of the Valley of Death but not bad competition.

Also with players like Lew Alcindor, Elvin Hayes, Pete Maravich, Wes Unseld, Butch Beard, Lucius Allen, Bob Lanier, Calvin Murphy, and Jo Jo White populating the AA teams in those days there wasn't a lot of room at the All-America Inn.

I am not saying Cleanthony does not deserve to have his jersey hanging in the rafters. But if I had a vote Warren would be right there (even without the AA by his name) with Dave, X, Antoine, Cleo, Cliff, Cle, Fred and Ron when all is said and done. Alas I don't have a vote and if it does ever happen it would be kinda of sad that it could not have happened while Warren was still alive.

Carry on.

[1972Shocker]

If we can't add Warren to the group of Shocker All-Americans maybe we could start another grouping of players. Call them the All-Time Bad Ass Shocker Studs.

Warren Armstrong and Tekele Cotton would make a good pair to start with.

[chitown_shocker]

Ron is one of the top guards in the nation and has been for about three years. He is every bit as important as Fred. Jason Perez was a stand out in a dark time and very talented, but I dont think he was anywhere close to Ron. Ron does EVERYTHING well. Thats his strong point.