the 100 greatest Shocker players

[wufan]

Where did I say Kyles was bad? Actually said "I'm not saying that he shouldn't have been higher".

Carl Hall and David Kyles were not competing for the same minutes. Hall was competing with Stutz, EO, Smith, and White. So, that's just not a good argument.

I assume "Wing Guard" is the 3? If you add Murry's minutes with the balance of minutes Smith had not playing the 4, those minutes are basically gone. I feel pretty confident in this as Stutz and EO played only the 5 with remaining minutes going to Hall. Hall's remaining minutes were at the 4 along with White. Most any remaining minutes probably went to Smith. Smith remaining minutes would have been at the 3. Now I take Ragland's minutes at the PG with the remaining mostly going to Williams. Williams' remaining minutes are at the 2 (something like 360) where he started (22) all but the one game Ragland missed and most of freshman Cotton's 310. As senior David was playing mostly the 2, he was splitting the available minutes with junior Willliams and Cotton (about 40% went to them). Williams as a sophomore started only 1 game and increased his minutes by about 340 as a junior.

All I'm saying is that Kyles lost minutes, as a senior, to a junior who greatly increased his minutes and freshman Cotton (whether he played the 2 or the 3). Again, not saying Kyles is a bad player at all. I'm just not buying the head and shoulders better than all or most of the 80-99 ahead of him.

I think I kept up with that. A lot of good info there. I agree he is not head and shoulders better than 80-90, but I think he's probably right in there; 90 +/- .

[Ashockalypse]

Kyles is 70-80 at worst.

[Shocktoberfest]

Where did I say Kyles was bad? Actually said "I'm not saying that he shouldn't have been higher".

Carl Hall and David Kyles were not competing for the same minutes. Hall was competing with Stutz, EO, Smith, and White. So, that's just not a good argument.

I assume "Wing Guard" is the 3? If you add Murry's minutes with the balance of minutes Smith had not playing the 4, those minutes are basically gone. I feel pretty confident in this as Stutz and EO played only the 5 with remaining minutes going to Hall. Hall's remaining minutes were at the 4 along with White. Most any remaining minutes probably went to Smith. Smith remaining minutes would have been at the 3. Now I take Ragland's minutes at the PG with the remaining mostly going to Williams. Williams' remaining minutes are at the 2 (something like 360) where he started (22) all but the one game Ragland missed and most of freshman Cotton's 310. As senior David was playing mostly the 2, he was splitting the available minutes with junior Willliams and Cotton (about 40% went to them). Williams as a sophomore started only 1 game and increased his minutes by about 340 as a junior.

All I'm saying is that Kyles lost minutes, as a senior, to a junior who greatly increased his minutes and freshman Cotton (whether he played the 2 or the 3). Again, not saying Kyles is a bad player at all. I'm just not buying the head and shoulders better than all or most of the 80-99 ahead of him.

I really miss that Cotton kid.

[shockmonster]

Bobby Wilson should be in Top 25 conversation. One of the best Shocker shooters who played for Chicsgo Bulls. Only problem was that he only played two years. When he played there was very little help inside playing a 6'4" Center. I think that Vince Wilson played then too.

[60Shock]

Are Fred and Ron eligible for this list? If so, definitely Top 5 or 6 for both.

[Shocker1976]

My Top 10 -

1. Dave Stallworth
2. Xavier McDaniel
3. Gene Wiley
4. Cleo Littleton
5. Antoine Carr
6. Warren (Armstrong) Jabali
7. FVV
8. Cliff Levingston
9. Ron Baker
10. Cheese Johnson

[wufan]

My Top 10 -

1. Dave Stallworth
2. Xavier McDaniel
3. Gene Wiley
4. Cleo Littleton
5. Antoine Carr
6. Warren (Armstrong) Jabali
7. FVV
8. Cliff Levingston
9. Ron Baker
10. Cheese Johnson

Really high on Wiley. I know he was very good.

[Shocktoberfest]

Are Fred and Ron eligible for this list? If so, definitely Top 5 or 6 for both.

Bob will have Fred in the top 10 and Baker in the top 20 somewhere. Just my gut.

[WuDrWu]

1. Dave Stallworth
2. Xavier McDaniel
3. Cleo Littleton
4. Antoine Carr
5. Fred VanVleet
6. Ron Baker
7. Warren Jabali
8. Gene Wiley
9. Cheese Johnson
10. Cleanthony Early

[jcdshocker]

1. D. Stallworth
2. X. McDaniel
3. A. Carr
4. F. VanVleet
5. R. Baker
6. W. Armstrong/Jabali
7. C. Littleton
8. Ch. Johnson
9. C. Early
10. J. Perez
11. C. Levingston
12. G. Wiley
13. T. Murry
14. A. Sherrod
15. R. Burns

[pinstripers]

1. Dave
2. X
3. AC
4. Cleo
5. Armstrong
6. Baker
6. Fred
8. Cliff
9. Wiley
10. Elmore

[im4wsu]

My Top 10 -

1. Dave Stallworth
2. Xavier McDaniel
3. Gene Wiley
4. Cleo Littleton
5. Antoine Carr
6. Warren (Armstrong) Jabali
7. FVV
8. Cliff Levingston
9. Ron Baker
10. Cheese Johnson

Really high on Wiley. I know he was very good.

Wiley may well be the most improved Shocker from his first game/season to his final game/season. Miller really taught him how to play basketball and the center position, defensively at least. But no way in the top 10, IMHO

[Shocker1976]

Wiley may well be the most improved Shocker from his first game/season to his final game/season. Miller really taught him how to play basketball and the center position, defensively at least. But no way in the top 10, IMHO

I will admit I am biased regards Gene Wiley; growing up on the farm, he was the first athlete with whom I identified. I shot a lot of baskets on a goal mounted of the end of the chicken house pretending I was the Shocker Star.

[im4wsu]

I will admit I am biased regards Gene Wiley; growing up on the farm, he was the first athlete with whom I identified. I shot a lot of baskets on a goal mounted of the end of the chicken house pretending I was the Shocker Star.

Gene was quite an artist as well. Funny to see him painting on a 4"x6" canvas when he was so gangly at 6'10".

In his first year(s), Gene had such a propensity to use his hands to rebound FTs that Ralph had him hold both hands over his head in an attempt to not foul, which only worked part of the time. By the final season, Gene was really a very very good player.

[pinstripers]

Rick Conn?