the 100 greatest Shocker players

[WSUwatcher]

Hard to complain about the top 10 players; still, any subjective list of this type, which is so driven by memory and eye tests with no serious metrics to help out, lends itself to quibbles about specific positions.

Personally, I liked the top four but would have rearranged the next four, putting VanVleet ahead of Armstrong for his impact on winning, and maybe Baker ahead of Levingston for the same reason even though Cliff was a far higher NBA draft choice than Ron can plausibly hope to be. There may also have been a little bit of an agenda at play; Lutz has made it clear for years that he believes Armstrong is officially underappreciated (a rare case in which I agree with him -- I'm delighted to see Warren the Player way up there even though I think he may have been a shade too high).

Nice series, and now it's time for Fred and Ron to issue their call for a recount with some big postseason work.

[1972Shocker]

It is particularly difficult to compare players of different eras. The way the game is played has changed. Training methods and regimens have change a lot. Many of today's players play year round with AAU ball providing a higher level of competition than high school. OTOH, the Missouri Valley in the 1960's was one of, if not the, top league in the nation.

You have rule changes such as freshman eligibility and the 3-point line that have a big impact on career statistics. It is also eminently easier to get into post-season play today then it was in the 1960's. Of course, these days you can have players leave early for the NBA (i.e. Cliff Levingston) although that has not been a big factor at WSU.

What kind of numbers would Dave Stallworth have put up if he had played 130 to 140 varsity games instead of the 80 games he played his sophomore through senior seasons and if the 3-point line had been in place when he played.

Another example is Warren Armstrong/Jabali. Warren had 429 career assists. Well behind Fred's current career assist total of 624. But Warren's totals were accumulated in 78 games. Fred's in 138 at this point. Applying Warren's career assist per game average to 138 games would produce an assist total of 759. OTOH, Fred only played about 16 mpg per game his freshman year so the best comparison would be to compare Fred's last 3 years to Warren's 3 years which exclude his freshman year when he was ineligible to play at the varsity level. On that basis Fred has 535 assists in 99 games are an average of 5.40 per game. Very, very close to Warren's s 3 year average of 5.50 per game.

Of course, the other difficulty in comparing Fred and Warren is that Fred is a pure point guard, the best WSU has ever had. Warren was kind of freak athlete who kind of defied classification. Fred is kind of a freak himself but more in a cerebral sense. That's not to diminish Warren's BBIQ or Fred's athleticism. The just arrived at nearly the same assist averages in much different ways.

When you get into evaluating how much any individual player impacted winning it starts to become pretty subjective again as that can be impacted by the talent you are playing with, the quality of coaching and the strength of schedule.

Suffice it to say you could come up with a great team by putting the 3 best Shockers at each position on a roster.

Here's my dream roster:
Point Guard: Fred VanVleet, Ernie Moore
Combo Guard/Small Forward; Warren Armstrong/Jabali
Shooting Guard: Aubrey Sherrod, Ron Baker, Jason Perez
Small Forward: Dave Stallworth, Cleanthony Early, Cheese Johnson
Power Forward: Antoine Carr, Xavier McDaniel, Cliff Levingston
Center: Gene Wiley, Bob Elmore, Nate Bowman

It's not that easy to do because you still have some great Shockers you feel guilty about not including them on such a roster. For example, it was a real tough choice picking Jason Perez over Kelly Pete at shooting guard.

[Shocker85]

Small Forward: Dave Stallworth, Cleanthony Early, Cheese Johnson
Power Forward: Antoine Carr, Xavier McDaniel, Cliff Levingston

Now that right there is an amazing collection of athletes.

The rims an backboards wouldn't stand a chance.

[Teddy Graham]

Great to see some love for Cheese! I watched him as a kid and now I realize what a treat that was. Watching a 6'5" or 6'6" power forward dominate the paint like that. I used to go home after the game and shoot at a nerf hoop that was attached to a door to the living room imitating different players' shots. My Cheese shot was ALWAYS a double pump.

[WuShock Reaper]

Here is what The Wichita Eagle had a few years ago as the top 10.

by Bob Lutz

http://www.kansas.com/sports/college...e53766020.html

1. Dave Stallworth*#
2. Xavier McDaniel*#
3. Antoine Carr*#
4. Cleo Littleton*#
5. Warren Armstrong*
6. Fred Van Vleet
7. Cliff Levingston*#
8. Ron Baker
9. Cleanthony Early
10. Cheese Johnson*

# = Jersey Retired

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wichita_State_Shockers_men%27s_basketball#Retired_numbers

* = Member of the Shockers Sports Hall of Fame
https://goshockers.com/sports/2015/6...ocker_HOF.aspx

[JVShocker]

Here is what The Wichita Eagle had a few years ago as the top 10.

by Bob Lutz

http://www.kansas.com/sports/college...e53766020.html

1. Dave Stallworth*#
2. Xavier McDaniel*#
3. Antoine Carr*#
4. Cleo Littleton*#
5. Warren Armstrong*
6. Fred Van Vleet
7. Cliff Levingston*#
8. Ron Baker
9. Cleanthony Early
10. Cheese Johnson*

# = Jersey Retired
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wichit...etired_numbers

* = Member of the Shockers Sports Hall of Fame
https://goshockers.com/sports/2015/6...ocker_HOF.aspx

In regards to this thread/post......not Bob L.

[Shockm]

On Cleanthony’s thread, I was very close to Bob. The Top 5 were the same, except I had Fred in the Top 5 instead of Warren. Cle was in my next 5 with pretty much the same players as Bob. Imo, the only two to really have an argument to be the Top Shocker basketball player are Dave and X. I think Bob would agree with that. Only people who never saw Dave play wouldn’t include Stallworth as a Top player. Cle was the best Shocker Forward and maybe the Top Shocker after 1985 imo.