Shockers are the 6th best offense

[Kaneohe]

Bill Self is a tremendous coach.

Bill Self obviously is one of the best coaches in the country. Like Gregg Marshall, he has done a great job everywhere he has coached. If Kansas has had an issue lately in the tourney, I think it likely is related to the one (or two) and done players. Wichita State would not be the quality team they are, if VanVleet or Baker had left after one year.

Conversely, Kansas would have been much less erratic if Andrew Wiggins and Joel Embiid were sophomores and Ben Mclemore was a senior last year.

[WSUwatcher]

Watch B12 games some time. The rotation to open perimeter players is so slow it's nearly non-existent. Leave any team in the Valley as open on the perimeter as the B12 does, and the MVC team is draining 3's forever. The B12 has more emphasis on one-on-one play and pounding the ball inside. Take those 2 things away and a B12 team has a GREAT defense. When teams from the B12 play teams with more balanced offenses, their deficiency on D is shown.

KU could have a great adjusted D on Pomeroy because they aren't required to have a complete defense in the league they're in.

+1

Excellent points, Aargh. Sometimes it's so easy just to look at statistics that people forget to look at where the numbers actually come from and how they're created. That may be happening here.

There's a reason (speaking of statistics) the NCAA doesn't just complete its at-large field for March by just looking at RPI, the supposedly comprehensive statistic: it's because the RPI can hide the reality as easily as it can present it, depending on the characteristics of a particular team or league's schedule. Much the same may well be true of Pomeroy's defensive ratings, and The Flagship is certainly a potential exhibit in support of that possibility.

[jdshock]

Bill Self obviously is one of the best coaches in the country. Like Gregg Marshall, he has done a great job everywhere he has coached. If Kansas has had an issue lately in the tourney, I think it likely is related to the one (or two) and done players. Wichita State would not be the quality team they are, if VanVleet or Baker had left after one year.

Conversely, Kansas would have been much less erratic if Andrew Wiggins and Joel Embiid were sophomores and Ben Mclemore was a senior last year.

I don't get how that saves him from criticism, though. Who is doing the recruiting? It's not as if there is some general manager that selects the team for BS and he just has to make the team work. BS didn't recruit Wiggins hoping that he would stick around for four years. It's also not like NO ONE has had success with one and dones. BS has not had the success that Cal and K have had with similar guys. That may mean BS isn't a great talent evaluator (though, some of those guys' careers in the NBA would suggest it's not that they're bad players). It may mean that BS isn't great at getting his guys to play hard in the tournament. Who knows. I think underachieving with some of the most hyped players in the country means that he is overrated.

Regardless, BS is a mediocre in-game coach, and I think most people agree with that.

[Kel Varnsen]

Watch B12 games some time. The rotation to open perimeter players is so slow it's nearly non-existent. Leave any team in the Valley as open on the perimeter as the B12 does, and the MVC team is draining 3's forever. The B12 has more emphasis on one-on-one play and pounding the ball inside. Take those 2 things away and a B12 team has a GREAT defense. When teams from the B12 play teams with more balanced offenses, their deficiency on D is shown.

KU could have a great adjusted D on pomeroy because they aren't required to have a complete defense in the league they're in.

While this may be an interesting point (I'm not sure whether it's right or wrong), you also have to take into account that the strength of the conference is helped mainly by their performance in the non-conference schedule, so you could say the relative strength of the conferences is determined before the conference season even starts. So a lot of computer rankings like KenPom won't change once conference play starts unless a team's performance is a significant departure from their non-conference performance.

The RPI is a completely different formula which uses an overly simplistic method and even likes KU more than KenPom. It doesn't take into account anything but the final score, so a 1 point victory is the same as a 30 point victory with regards to evaluation. I don't think it's useful for the NCAA Selection Committee or anyone else to use.

The funny thing is KU plays very similarly to us when it comes down to it. Unselfish, team defense, things like that. I get that a lot of you hate KU, but more than anything I appreciate good basketball. And over the last ten years, KU has been as good and more consistently near the top than about anyone out there.

Many of us shall have to agree to disagree. :)

[Kung Wu]

Bill Self sells a quality Chevrolet car at a fair price, but his service center lacks integrit --- doh! That's Joe Self. Nevermind.

[im4wsu]

A Shocker 6th best offense thread has turned into a KU pity party.

And it's a reoccurring theme with certain individuals.


Self is a hell of a coach at Allen Fieldhouse. I'll give him that.

He certainly does a terrific job of "coaching" the stripes at Allen!

[ShockerFever]

While this may be an interesting point (I'm not sure whether it's right or wrong), you also have to take into account that the strength of the conference is helped mainly by their performance in the non-conference schedule, so you could say the relative strength of the conferences is determined before the conference season even starts. So a lot of computer rankings like KenPom won't change once conference play starts unless a team's performance is a significant departure from their non-conference performance.

The RPI is a completely different formula which uses an overly simplistic method and even likes KU more than KenPom. It doesn't take into account anything but the final score, so a 1 point victory is the same as a 30 point victory with regards to evaluation. I don't think it's useful for the NCAA Selection Committee or anyone else to use.

The funny thing is KU plays very similarly to us when it comes down to it. Unselfish, team defense, things like that. I get that a lot of you hate KU, but more than anything I appreciate good basketball. And over the last ten years, KU has been as good and more consistently near the top than about anyone out there.

Many of us shall have to agree to disagree. :)

KU sucks monkey testicles.

[ShockdaWorld]

KU's "strength" of anything is based on KU having their own metric. Last year proved that rather succinctly. How many losses can a team have and still be top 10? That depends on how many losses KU has. How many losses can a team have and still be either a number 1 or 2 seed in the tourney? That depends on how many losses KU has. What percentage of teams from a certain conference can lose in the first weekend of the tourney and still be called (comically) the best conference in the country? That depends. How many Big12 teams got knocked out in the first weekend. It doesn't matter how good or bad KU is, their history, name recognition, and media love fest will (almost) always keep them in the top 10 and (almost) always give them a top 2 seed in the tourney. Everyone else (outside of the other 3-4 teams in the same position as KU) just has to play their way around those obstacles, and usually at tourney time, they do.

[Kaneohe]

Regardless, BS is a mediocre in-game coach, and I think most people agree with that.

In fact, most people do not agree with that. I am as much a Shocker fan as anyone, but that does not blind me to reality. Self won lots and lots of games at Oral Robert, Tulsa, Illinois, and now a butt load at Kansas - including an amazing conference championship streak.

That's a pretty good feat for a "mediocre" coach.

[ShockerFever]

Self sucks banana fruit.

[jdshock]

In fact, most people do not agree with that. I am as much a Shocker fan as anyone, but that does not blind me to reality. Self won lots and lots of games at Oral Robert, Tulsa, Illinois, and now a butt load at Kansas - including an amazing conference championship streak.

That's a pretty good feat for a "mediocre" coach.

You completely ignored the majority of my post. You said that Bill Self is a great coach and the reason KU has failed in the tournament is because of their recruits. I asked who is responsible for that if not BS, but you haven't provided an answer.

I didn't say BS is a mediocre coach. I said I, along with many people, think he is a mediocre in-game coach. He seems to do a bad job adjusting and reacting to other teams on the fly.

[Kaneohe]

You completely ignored the majority of my post. You said that Bill Self is a great coach and the reason KU has failed in the tournament is because of their recruits. I asked who is responsible for that if not BS, but you haven't provided an answer.

I didn't say BS is a mediocre coach. I said I, along with many people, think he is a mediocre in-game coach. He seems to do a bad job adjusting and reacting to other teams on the fly.

Seriously? First you insist that BS is only a mediocre in-game coach, then you say that he is a poor recruiter. Wow, I wonder why anyone would hire such a lousy coach. Apparently, Kansas lucked into all those conference championships.

The fact remains that nearly any college in the country would love to have BS or Gregg Marshall as a coach. Both are tremendous coaches, as their records and achievements demonstrate.

BS's record is 559-183, that is pretty good for a "mediocre" in-game coach.

By the way, KU reacted positively in the second half after WSU made that great run. KU came back within a few points, and I was more than a little worried. I think WSU's skill players then put the game out of reach, not BS's "mediocre" in-game skills.

[Kel Varnsen]

Going Triangle and 2 on UNC in 2012 was not the sign of a "mediocre" in-game coach. His end-of-game "chop" play, which is run in variations by college coaches across the country, is not the sign of a "mediocre" in-game coach.

I'm sure, like Marshall, he gets the best players he can get, sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't. He took a team that started Connor Teahan to the NC game for crying out loud.

[ShockdaWorld]

Meh...some disagreements are simply going to remain that way because people are blinded by the feathers over their eyes. Personal opinions are going to vary. Self is at KU, one of (if not THE) most storied franchises (yes I meant to say franchises) in the history of college basketball. He gets 5 star players regularly based on the name on the front of the jersey and his abilities to recruit (even if it is guys that may or may not be eligible for the entire season). He has been outcoached or his 5 star studs get outplayed (which is a product of coaching) by much lower seeded teams (MVC teams to be more specific) regularly come March. Congratulations to him on 11 in a row B12 championships. Also, congratulations to him on being the second best D1 Men's basketball coach in the state and on having the second best team in the state.

[jdshock]

Seriously? First you insist that BS is only a mediocre in-game coach, then you say that he is a poor recruiter. Wow, I wonder why anyone would hire such a lousy coach. Apparently, Kansas lucked into all those conference championships.

The fact remains that nearly any college in the country would love to have BS or Gregg Marshall as a coach. Both are tremendous coaches, as their records and achievements demonstrate.

BS's record is 559-183, that is pretty good for a "mediocre" in-game coach.

By the way, KU reacted positively in the second half after WSU made that great run. KU came back within a few points, and I was more than a little worried. I think WSU's skill players then put the game out of reach, not BS's "mediocre" in-game skills.

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about at this point. You said the reason for KU's losses has been their one and done players. I said the only person that deserves that criticism is Bill Self. I think it's silly to praise Bill Self as being this incredible coach and then say "the only reason he hasn't had more success is because of the one and done guys! If Wiggins and Embiid had stuck around, KU would be great!" Bill Self is making a conscious decision to recruit guys that are going to leave after a year.

I absolutely never said he's a poor recruiter. I think he's an absolutely excellent recruiter. In fact, that's a key part of the reason I think he has underachieved. Cal and K have won championships with one and done players and Bill Self hasn't.