Congrats Winthrop - 4 NCAA's in a row

[The Mad Hatter]

While driving around town today and listening to sports radio, Andy Katz talked a little bit about Winthrop and Gregg Marshall. When asked if he felt GM made a mistake to go to WSU, Katz proclaimed a big yes. He advised he would have all but sure locked up the South Carolina job but now won't even get a look based on how poorly WSU peformed this year.

Katz stated there was no benefit for GM to go to WSU. He had Winthrop and that conference locked down essentially which he could have parlayed into a higher profile job. GM then moves to a different and more difficult conference and goes back to mediocrity is going to cost him.

While he may turn out to be right, there are a lot of problems with that argument:

1. The argument only holds up if Marshall fails to succeed over the long term at WSU. Clearly if all his tenure is like this year, the Katz argument will hold up, but it is way too early to proclaim that. If he succeeds at WSU, he will be in an even better position for a "bigger" job, having proven he can rebuild a team in a tougher conference.

2. The reason that Marshall left Winthrop is that, while knowing he had the league wrapped up, he also knew that winning his league would not get him a good NCAA seed. The fact is that if he wins the Valley at WSU he will be in a better position in the NCAA's than he was at Winthrop.

3. The assumption that South Carolina is a better job than WSU should not be a given for several reasons.

A) In the first place, the reason that their coach resigned was because, in spite of very little fan support, the expectations were ridiculous. Basically, the South Carolina coach would have minimal resources and be under constant threat of being fired for not meeting unrealistic expectations. The exact opposite is true at WSU. Huge fan support without the constant threat of being canned.

B) Remember that the reason we have Aaron Ellis is that S. Carolina has funky entrance requirements that mean that some players who have cleared the NCAA can't get in.

C) Winning the conference is out of the question and getting enough wins for the NCAAs is tough. Remember, just in the SEC EAST, USC would be trying to beat out Florida, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Vanderbilt. Does anyone really think that getting through that makes USC an easier place to get to the NCAAs than WSU, even with more bids for the SEC than for the MVC?

4. The whole premise of moving to WSU being a bad idea because it cost him the USC job contradicts his basic premise that it was a bad idea to leave Winthrop where he was winning to go to a bigger, tougher conference where he would have to rebuild a team.

If he assumes that Marshall's tenure at WSU will be a failure, why wouldn't his tenure at USC be a failure (and likely a quicker firing)?

If he assumes that Marshall just had a tough first year and is a good enough coach to compete in the rugged SEC East, then won't he be good enough to make WSU compete for a Valley title and be back in the running for jobs similar or better than USC?

Either Marshall is in over his head at a program larger than Winthrop, in which case he would fail anywhere he went, or he is a good coach and will eventually succeed. You can't have it both ways.

[ISASO]

Let's just remember these comments and bring them back to Katz's attention in about 5 years. On a national radio format, if at all possible.

[SFL]

Let's just remember these comments and bring them back to Katz's attention in about 5 years. On a national radio format, if at all possible.

I hope someone sends the Katz comments to Marshall... he needs to continue to fill his war chest... as usual, Katz is full of hot air.

[wu_shizzle]

While he may turn out to be right, there are a lot of problems with that argument:

1. The argument only holds up if Marshall fails to succeed over the long term at WSU. Clearly if all his tenure is like this year, the Katz argument will hold up, but it is way too early to proclaim that. If he succeeds at WSU, he will be in an even better position for a "bigger" job, having proven he can rebuild a team in a tougher conference.

2. The reason that Marshall left Winthrop is that, while knowing he had the league wrapped up, he also knew that winning his league would not get him a good NCAA seed. The fact is that if he wins the Valley at WSU he will be in a better position in the NCAA's than he was at Winthrop.

3. The assumption that South Carolina is a better job than WSU should not be a given for several reasons.

A) In the first place, the reason that their coach resigned was because, in spite of very little fan support, the expectations were ridiculous. Basically, the South Carolina coach would have minimal resources and be under constant threat of being fired for not meeting unrealistic expectations. The exact opposite is true at WSU. Huge fan support without the constant threat of being canned.

B) Remember that the reason we have Aaron Ellis is that S. Carolina has funky entrance requirements that mean that some players who have cleared the NCAA can't get in.

C) Winning the conference is out of the question and getting enough wins for the NCAAs is tough. Remember, just in the SEC EAST, USC would be trying to beat out Florida, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Vanderbilt. Does anyone really think that getting through that makes USC an easier place to get to the NCAAs than WSU, even with more bids for the SEC than for the MVC?

4. The whole premise of moving to WSU being a bad idea because it cost him the USC job contradicts his basic premise that it was a bad idea to leave Winthrop where he was winning to go to a bigger, tougher conference where he would have to rebuild a team.

If he assumes that Marshall's tenure at WSU will be a failure, why wouldn't his tenure at USC be a failure (and likely a quicker firing)?

If he assumes that Marshall just had a tough first year and is a good enough coach to compete in the rugged SEC East, then won't he be good enough to make WSU compete for a Valley title and be back in the running for jobs similar or better than USC?

Either Marshall is in over his head at a program larger than Winthrop, in which case he would fail anywhere he went, or he is a good coach and will eventually succeed. You can't have it both ways.

If I'm ever in trouble with the law I want you to represent me.

If you're not an attorney, maybe you should be.

[wu_shizzle]

Thats understandable.

Considering you lack the cerebral properties necessary to do so

[shockar25]

While driving around town today and listening to sports radio, Andy Katz talked a little bit about Winthrop and Gregg Marshall. When asked if he felt GM made a mistake to go to WSU, Katz proclaimed a big yes. He advised he would have all but sure locked up the South Carolina job but now won't even get a look based on how poorly WSU peformed this year.

Katz stated there was no benefit for GM to go to WSU. He had Winthrop and that conference locked down essentially which he could have parlayed into a higher profile job. GM then moves to a different and more difficult conference and goes back to mediocrity is going to cost him.

While he may turn out to be right, there are a lot of problems with that argument:

1. The argument only holds up if Marshall fails to succeed over the long term at WSU. Clearly if all his tenure is like this year, the Katz argument will hold up, but it is way too early to proclaim that. If he succeeds at WSU, he will be in an even better position for a "bigger" job, having proven he can rebuild a team in a tougher conference.

2. The reason that Marshall left Winthrop is that, while knowing he had the league wrapped up, he also knew that winning his league would not get him a good NCAA seed. The fact is that if he wins the Valley at WSU he will be in a better position in the NCAA's than he was at Winthrop.

3. The assumption that South Carolina is a better job than WSU should not be a given for several reasons.

A) In the first place, the reason that their coach resigned was because, in spite of very little fan support, the expectations were ridiculous. Basically, the South Carolina coach would have minimal resources and be under constant threat of being fired for not meeting unrealistic expectations. The exact opposite is true at WSU. Huge fan support without the constant threat of being canned.

B) Remember that the reason we have Aaron Ellis is that S. Carolina has funky entrance requirements that mean that some players who have cleared the NCAA can't get in.

C) Winning the conference is out of the question and getting enough wins for the NCAAs is tough. Remember, just in the SEC EAST, USC would be trying to beat out Florida, Kentucky, Tennessee, and Vanderbilt. Does anyone really think that getting through that makes USC an easier place to get to the NCAAs than WSU, even with more bids for the SEC than for the MVC?

4. The whole premise of moving to WSU being a bad idea because it cost him the USC job contradicts his basic premise that it was a bad idea to leave Winthrop where he was winning to go to a bigger, tougher conference where he would have to rebuild a team.

If he assumes that Marshall's tenure at WSU will be a failure, why wouldn't his tenure at USC be a failure (and likely a quicker firing)?

If he assumes that Marshall just had a tough first year and is a good enough coach to compete in the rugged SEC East, then won't he be good enough to make WSU compete for a Valley title and be back in the running for jobs similar or better than USC?

Either Marshall is in over his head at a program larger than Winthrop, in which case he would fail anywhere he went, or he is a good coach and will eventually succeed. You can't have it both ways.

Nicely put. I don't see how there's any way to really argue with that.

[RoyalShock]

4. The whole premise of moving to WSU being a bad idea because it cost him the USC job contradicts his basic premise that it was a bad idea to leave Winthrop where he was winning to go to a bigger, tougher conference where he would have to rebuild a team.

If he assumes that Marshall's tenure at WSU will be a failure, why wouldn't his tenure at USC be a failure (and likely a quicker firing)?

If he assumes that Marshall just had a tough first year and is a good enough coach to compete in the rugged SEC East, then won't he be good enough to make WSU compete for a Valley title and be back in the running for jobs similar or better than USC?

Either Marshall is in over his head at a program larger than Winthrop, in which case he would fail anywhere he went, or he is a good coach and will eventually succeed. You can't have it both ways.

Exactly. And what he's saying, even if he doesn't realize it, is that perception is all that really matters. If Marshall waits and then goes to USC, he gets the payday and the "prestige", which is really all that matters.

Right? Isn't that what we're supposed to think?

[ABC]

Wasn't Katz spouting the great things about WSU not that long ago? About how great the facilities were etc?

[Flanders]

And Katz is ridiculous by saying that HCGM would have had the USC job wrapped up - especially since the reports out of Columbia are that the AD wants to hire an african-american coach.

[WSUShokker]

2. The reason that Marshall left Winthrop is that, while knowing he had the league wrapped up, he also knew that winning his league would not get him a good NCAA seed. The fact is that if he wins the Valley at WSU he will be in a better position in the NCAA's than he was at Winthrop.

He also watched as he was passed over before by USC when they got Odom...because of his lack of experience or whatever...The Winthrop board is very excited about their new coach...but again they believe that they will at best get a 14 seed(which I doubt) more likely a 15 seed(maybe) but they cringe at the possiblity of getting another 16 seed...Unfortunately they lost their bracket buster game and the other matchups against UNC Charlotte ....their league is up I think but still ranked 24th from what I saw...The MVC is 8th in what I see as a down year for the valley.

This was Marshalls future at Winthrop be it good bad or otherwise because of the overall weakness of the other schools in the BSC.

I for one am both excited we have him and our outlook for the future of Shocker basketball....

P.S. great avatar Royal...time to get rid of the radiation avatar for me

[Shox21]

And Katz is ridiculous by saying that HCGM would have had the USC job wrapped up - especially since the reports out of Columbia are that the AD wants to hire an african-american coach.

I too listened to that broadcast and I don't remember Katz saying Marshall would have had the USC job "all but wrapped up." If he did say that, I missed it. What I got out of the broadcast was that if Marshall had stayed at Winthrop, he would most certainly have been in a far better position for the USC job. There was another broadcaster there (I don't know who) that when Katz said "Yes" most definitely Marshall made a huge mistake by coming to WSU, basically said "Whoa now. The guy is in this first year. You don't give him any slack for that?" To which Katz replied, "No."

[The Mad Hatter]

There was another broadcaster there (I don't know who) that when Katz said "Yes" most definitely Marshall made a huge mistake by coming to WSU, basically said "Whoa now. The guy is in this first year. You don't give him any slack for that?" To which Katz replied, "No."

That is because Katz is a huge bandwagoner. He realizes that praising teams that are winning and criticizing those that are losing makes you look good, even if it turns out to just be a flash in the pan.

The fact is that journalists like Katz are rarely called out for making the statements down the road, and get praised for making the statement at the moment, so there is little benefit to not making short-sighted arguments.

BTW, I did want to note that I am happy to see Winthrop in the NCAAs and will be pulling for them.

[Rosewood]

TMH: "journalists" like katz...

I too am glad to see Winthrop in because the name of the school always makes me think of Trading Places .

[BostonWu]

A little late but how about that high school gym the championship game was played in? I read where the official attendance was barely over 1k. That kind of puts the Big South into perspective a little. I guess I was thinking it was closer to the CAA than KCAC in regards to facilities.

[wupike]

It depends on where you play, just like any other conference. UNCA won homecourt, their arena holds like 1k people max. Winthrops arena holds a little over 6k. But it was very teeeeeeny.