Kentucky...

[MoValley John]

He has long said players should be given a larger stipend and he argued for years about feeding players, long before the hungry UConn kid. It is in his book. He said years ago, the NCAA would adapt or be finished. If a kid is one and done or 2 what does it matter? Cal's UK>>NBA players have over a billion in contracts counting endorsements and that is before Anthony Davis and others cash in. Would a 4 year graduate in a worthless AFAM degree make one any better?

The whole thing is a sham. If a kid goes to college, he should go to college. If a kid wants to play pro ball out of high school, let him play. To send a kid to college for a year, to have him pretend to go to class, and sis boom bah the whole college thing is laughable. I'm all for giving these kids stipends, they need money. The kids that play for Kentucky aren't students. Period. They don't represent the school, it is a fraud. They represent John Calipari and his twisted exploitation of these kids for his own gain and ego. If the NBA dropped the stupid age and year from graduation requirements, Calipari is doomed.

[Rlh04d]

You would take Calipari, because just like North Carolina, academics means nothing compared to basketball success. When you throw out the academic side and just worry about athletics, winning is much easier against competition that at least puts a cursory effort into educating their athletes.

Winning at Kentucky is great, it brings in booster money and sells tee shirts. It makes their fans feel really good. Great, actually. The downside is this, whether people say it as bluntly as I do, or politely ignore what is happening, everyone knows what is happening there. Everyone knows who Calipari is and what he is about. Everyone knows that Kentucky sold the last bit of deniability regarding athletics and ethics the mere second Calipari was hired. The world knows.

Kentucky is just the most blatant example of this. But EVERYONE is guilty to one degree or another of putting athletics over academics like this.

Just because Kentucky has every major player on their roster as a one-and-done guy doesn't make them completely different from the schools that have one or two of them -- that's a difference of magnitude, not type. And the one-and-done's are just an order of magnitude different from all of the other players across major college athletics that have their hand held through college to play athletics.

You're making it sound like there's this chunk of great schools all competing the right way, and Kentucky, doing it the wrong way. Nearly everyone in the NCAA is doing it "the wrong way," or at least trying to, because the NCAA as an institution is a joke that doesn't care about academics.

[MoValley John]

You're making it sound like there's this chunk of great schools all competing the right way, and Kentucky, doing it the wrong way. Nearly everyone in the NCAA is doing it "the wrong way," or at least trying to, because the NCAA as an institution is a joke that doesn't care about academics.

I'm not trying to make it sound that way, but it's difficult to cover all subtleties on a message board, also, I'm speaking only of John Calipari and Kentucky. As you said, Kentucky is the most blatant, but most schools massage around the rules from time to time, I get it.

What sets Kentucky apart is the blatant disregard for the rules. Fans do want their teams to win, but even though they know the coach might stretch the rules here or there, they really want to believe that their school does it the right way. Those same coaches that stretch the rules, still try to keep as clean as possible, not draw attention and do it the right way as much as possible. On the other hand, Calipari doesn't even try to hide it. Instead, he tries to change the narrative of him being a cheat, to him being this benevolent guy, just giving kids an Avenue to the NBA and riches. He speaks of it in interviews, he's written a book on it.

Kentucky fans, as is with most fans, want to believe that their school is doing the right thing, eat up Calipari's bullshit and justify paying one and does to not attend class and just win basketball games. They cheat at Kansas, they cheat at North Carolina, but they ttry to do it infrequently and quietly. At Kentucky, Calipari gets on a bullhorn and announces it to the world.

[another shocker]

I'm not trying to make it sound that way, but it's difficult to cover all subtleties on a message board, also, I'm speaking only of John Calipari and Kentucky. As you said, Kentucky is the most blatant, but most schools massage around the rules from time to time, I get it.

What sets Kentucky apart is the blatant disregard for the rules. Fans do want their teams to win, but even though they know the coach might stretch the rules here or there, they really want to believe that their school does it the right way. Those same coaches that stretch the rules, still try to keep as clean as possible, not draw attention and do it the right way as much as possible. On the other hand, Calipari doesn't even try to hide it. Instead, he tries to change the narrative of him being a cheat, to him being this benevolent guy, just giving kids an Avenue to the NBA and riches. He speaks of it in interviews, he's written a book on it.

Kentucky fans, as is with most fans, want to believe that their school is doing the right thing, eat up Calipari's bullshit and justify paying one and does to not attend class and just win basketball games. They cheat at Kansas, they cheat at North Carolina, but they ttry to do it infrequently and quietly. At Kentucky, Calipari gets on a bullhorn and announces it to the world.

infrequently, hunh? lol

[MoValley John]

infrequently, hunh? lol

Grrrr, another poorly chosen word. How about substitute infrequent for subtle enough not to garner attention? Better choice of words. Moreover, most schools try to cheat enough for an advantage but not enough to ever get caught. If you are cheating when you are recruiting a guy and lose him to another school, depending on who the other school is, you might find yourself in trouble. Therefore, cheating is done in a manner in which sanctions won't follow. Calipari just says the hell with that and pisses on any deniability. Being Kentucky, the NCAA just looks the other way.


Look, I'm in the middle of a strange weekend with kids traveling and my wife working nights and I'm getting like zero sleep. If I miss a word here or there, I'm sorry. Infrequent was a bad word.

[Kung Wu]

This thread has turned to total BS. "All schools do it." Total crap. I haven't seen any evidence of the New Jersey Institute of Technology boosters trying to buy off 5 stars. Or 4 stars. Or even 1 stars. In fact, I don't even think they have any boosters or fans other than the players parents. And since the NCAA allows parents to funnel funds to their kids, those kids are living large and eating p.h.a.t. -- but 100% legally!

So there's one counterexample.

Oh and then there's Presbyterian College! Now I know news recently broke of a "booster" loading the men's basketball team up in the team van and taking them and a heavily desired recruit to a swanky restaurant in town MULTIPLE TIMES in a single weekend. But you gotta believe me ... that was a deacon and they went to a Soup Kitchen as a philanthropy mission for the weekend. But the NCAA brought the thunder down and made sure they vacated any championships past, present, and future for 20 years. AND made them forfeit the first 5 games of their season -- but we aren't clear if that was just out of mercy. The point is, they paid the penance, and it was a simple misunderstanding. The recruit, by the way, decided after the experience that basketball wasn't for him and ended up playing goalkeeper -- expertly blocking shots with his face no less -- for Yale's soccer team. Can you say, "SCOTT STERLING"!?!

So let's really just not go there with the "every team" is doing it. Because I have given at least one SOLID counterexample, and sort of given a quasi-secondish.

[another shocker]

This thread has turned to total BS. "All schools do it." Total crap. I haven't seen any evidence of the New Jersey Institute of Technology boosters trying to buy off 5 stars. Or 4 stars. Or even 1 stars. In fact, I don't even think they have any boosters or fans other than the players parents. And since the NCAA allows parents to funnel funds to their kids, those kids are living large and eating p.h.a.t. -- but 100% legally!

So there's one counterexample.

Oh and then there's Presbyterian College! Now I know news recently broke of a "booster" loading the men's basketball team up in the team van and taking them and a heavily desired recruit to a swanky restaurant in town MULTIPLE TIMES in a single weekend. But you gotta believe me ... that was a deacon and they went to a Soup Kitchen as a philanthropy mission for the weekend. But the NCAA brought the thunder down and made sure they vacated any championships past, present, and future for 20 years. AND made them forfeit the first 5 games of their season -- but we aren't clear if that was just out of mercy. The point is, they paid the penance, and it was a simple misunderstanding. The recruit, by the way, decided after the experience that basketball wasn't for him and ended up playing goalkeeper -- expertly blocking shots with his face no less -- for Yale's soccer team. Can you say, "SCOTT STERLING"!?!

So let's really just not go there with the "every team" is doing it. Because I have given at least one SOLID counterexample, and sort of given a quasi-secondish.

if njit signed a 4* or 5* recruit, ku or unc (deputy dawg), you know, the squeaky clean programs, would report them to ncaa headquarters, is the problem. shameless hypocrite game become institutionalized (sp?), ncaa wide.

if uk gets in hot water, cleveland state will feel the wrath. that's the problem.

[Rlh04d]

I'm not trying to make it sound that way, but it's difficult to cover all subtleties on a message board, also, I'm speaking only of John Calipari and Kentucky. As you said, Kentucky is the most blatant, but most schools massage around the rules from time to time, I get it.

What sets Kentucky apart is the blatant disregard for the rules. Fans do want their teams to win, but even though they know the coach might stretch the rules here or there, they really want to believe that their school does it the right way. Those same coaches that stretch the rules, still try to keep as clean as possible, not draw attention and do it the right way as much as possible. On the other hand, Calipari doesn't even try to hide it. Instead, he tries to change the narrative of him being a cheat, to him being this benevolent guy, just giving kids an Avenue to the NBA and riches. He speaks of it in interviews, he's written a book on it.

Kentucky fans, as is with most fans, want to believe that their school is doing the right thing, eat up Calipari's bullshit and justify paying one and does to not attend class and just win basketball games. They cheat at Kansas, they cheat at North Carolina, but they ttry to do it infrequently and quietly. At Kentucky, Calipari gets on a bullhorn and announces it to the world.

I've gotta say ... I prefer the way Calipari does it.

If you're going to do it, do it openly. Make it obvious. Make the problem with the NCAA as a whole glaring.

I have a larger problem with the coaches and schools who cheat or put athletics well over academics but then hide it and still put up this air of elitism about how they're doing it "the right way! With integrity!", while crowing that Kentucky is the problem.

If you're going to take advantage of the NCAA's pathetic "rules," grab that bullhorn and announce it to the world. Expose the fraud that is this system with your every action instead of hiding behind this game we play about the integrity of college athletics.

[Rlh04d]

This thread has turned to total BS. "All schools do it." Total crap. I haven't seen any evidence of the New Jersey Institute of Technology boosters trying to buy off 5 stars. Or 4 stars. Or even 1 stars. In fact, I don't even think they have any boosters or fans other than the players parents. And since the NCAA allows parents to funnel funds to their kids, those kids are living large and eating p.h.a.t. -- but 100% legally!

So there's one counterexample.

Oh and then there's Presbyterian College! Now I know news recently broke of a "booster" loading the men's basketball team up in the team van and taking them and a heavily desired recruit to a swanky restaurant in town MULTIPLE TIMES in a single weekend. But you gotta believe me ... that was a deacon and they went to a Soup Kitchen as a philanthropy mission for the weekend. But the NCAA brought the thunder down and made sure they vacated any championships past, present, and future for 20 years. AND made them forfeit the first 5 games of their season -- but we aren't clear if that was just out of mercy. The point is, they paid the penance, and it was a simple misunderstanding. The recruit, by the way, decided after the experience that basketball wasn't for him and ended up playing goalkeeper -- expertly blocking shots with his face no less -- for Yale's soccer team. Can you say, "SCOTT STERLING"!?!

So let's really just not go there with the "every team" is doing it. Because I have given at least one SOLID counterexample, and sort of given a quasi-secondish.

You're right, not every school is doing it. That's a pretty clear exaggeration.

But a LARGE percentage of schools are. It's not just a matter of buying off 5 stars or 4 stars ... it's the systemic poor quality education given to athletes to carry them through college to maintain their eligibility. It's the massive cheating scandal at UNC, it's Derrick Rose cheating on his SATs, it's the University of Oklahoma professor finding that ~10% of OU's revenue sport athletes read below a fourth-grade level, it's CNN's investigation that 7-18% of revenue sport athletes at most universities read at an elementary school level while scoring single digits on their ACTs and 200-300 on their SATs, Kevin Ross at Creighton, and so many other problems.

I have little confidence in the integrity of any university competing in revenue sports. Even the ones that aren't trying to buy off 5 and 4 star athletes, how many of them would be if they could even get them to pick up the phone? Is that a matter of integrity or just lack of opportunities to cheat? At this point even when there's a lack of evidence that a school is cheating I simply assume they haven't been caught yet.

And it goes so far beyond universities. The problem is how many of these kids are showing up at the universities in this condition in the first place -- they're abandoning their integrity by allowing them into the schools, but really, once they're there, how much can you really do with an 18-year-old kid in college reading at a fourth grade level? And how do you control coaches from bringing in kids that meet every NCAA requirement, when the NCAA's sitting there and going "Yeah! That's enough to play D1 sports! You're good to go!" Do you unilaterally implement harder educational requirements and put yourself at a major disadvantage to everyone else? The problem is that the NCAA as a whole has incredibly low standards for playing D1 ball. And the problem is they're graduating high school in the first place with that poor academic ability. These kids are being failed in elementary school, failed in middle school, failed in high school, and failed in college. The entirety of the "revenue sport" academic model from the beginning until the university level is corrupted. It's not EVERYONE, it's not EVERY school, but it's such a large percentage of them that it's absolutely disgusting.

So no, I'm not capable of just pointing my finger at Kentucky or UNC and going "It's all their fault!" It's the NCAA's fault. It's the high school's fault. It's the fault of prep academies and AAU squads and corrupt coaches all down the line, and especially the parents.

IMO, implement credible academic standards that reach across all universities playing D1 sports and then enforce them, with clear cut rules on punishments ... not this wishy washy crap that will give SMU the death penalty and then inevitably give UNC a slap on the wrist for 18 years of cheating on top of everything else. Player does x, punishment is y -- no room for interpretation based on the size of the school. And enforce the rules so that plays who don't meet the standards are ineligible. The system will self-correct extremely fast and new leagues will be created for revenue sports to fill the gap until players meet the minimum requirements for entry to the NFL/NBA. And college athletics will become a less valuable property, TV contracts will plummet, athletic directors and coaches will take massive pay cuts, etc. But there would be integrity.

[dregn]

You're right, not every school is doing it. That's a pretty clear exaggeration.

But a LARGE Wwwpercentage of schools are. It's not just a matter of buying off 5 stars or 4 stars ... it's the systemic poor quality education given to athletes to carry them through college to maintain their eligibility. It's the massive cheating scandal at UNC, it's Derrick Rose cheating on his SATs, it's the University of Oklahoma professor finding that ~10% of OU's revenue sport athletes read below a fourth-grade level, it's CNN's investigation that 7-18% of revenue sport athletes at most universities read at an elementary school level while scoring single digits on their ACTs and 200-300 on their SATs, Kevin Ross at Creighton, and so many other problems.

I have little confidence in the integrity of any university competing in revenue sports. Even the ones that aren't trying to buy off 5 and 4 star athletes, how many of them would be if they could even get them to pick up the phone? Is that a matter of integrity or just lack of opportunities to cheat? At this point even when there's a lack of evidence that a school is cheating I simply assume they haven't been caught yet.

And it goes so far beyond universities. The problem is how many of these kids are showing up at the universities in this condition in the first place -- they're abandoning their integrity by allowing them into the schools, but really, once they're there, how much can you really do with an 18-year-old kid in college reading at a fourth grade level? And how do you control coaches from bringing in kids that meet every NCAA requirement, when the NCAA's sitting there and going "Yeah! That's enough to play D1 sports! You're good to go!" Do you unilaterally implement harder educational requirements and put yourself at a major disadvantage to everyone else? The problem is that the NCAA as a whole has incredibly low standards for playing D1 ball. And the problem is they're graduating high school in the first place with that poor academic ability. These kids are being failed in elementary school, failed in middle school, failed in high school, and failed in college. The entirety of the "revenue sport" academic model from the beginning until the university level is corrupted. It's not EVERYONE, it's not EVERY school, but it's such a large percentage of them that it's absolutely disgusting.

So no, I'm not capable of just pointing my finger at Kentucky or UNC and going "It's all their fault!" It's the NCAA's fault. It's the high school's fault. It's the fault of prep academies and AAU squads and corrupt coaches all down the line, and especially the parents.

IMO, implement credible academic standards that reach across all universities playing D1 sports and then enforce them, with clear cut rules on punishments ... not this wishy washy crap that will give SMU the death penalty and then inevitably give UNC a slap on the wrist for 18 years of cheating on top of everything else. Player does x, punishment is y -- no room for interpretation based on the size of the school. And enforce the rules so that plays who don't meet the standards are ineligible. The system will self-correct extremely fast and new leagues will be created for revenue sports to fill the gap until players meet the minimum requirements for entry to the NFL/NBA. And college athletics will become a less valuable property, TV contracts will plummet, athletic directors and coaches will take massive pay cuts, etc. But there would be integrity.

I'd also include us as fans at fault. As long as a provide the revenue stream it will continue.

[Rlh04d]

I'd also include us as fans at fault. As long as a provide the revenue stream it will continue.

Absolutely. We watch the games and watch the talking heads talk about the games. It's the fans who have monetized college sports to this level. We're the reason ESPN is able to charge every cable subscriber and then pump that money back into the college program. We're the reason the largest amount of money goes to the conference with the least amount of academic integrity. We drive the financial reward for unethical behavior.

A major part of the problem is that the majority of people who watch and cheer for college sports never went to college themselves, and so have no vested interest in the academic integrity of the schools they cheer for. You cheer for your team, but also for the value of your diploma, and you have a natural reason to temper athletic demands with the desire to maintain the integrity of a school that gave you a diploma. If you have no academic connection to a school, it's just a professional sports team. (And I say that with no academic tie to Wichita State, beyond the majority of my family members -- at the end of the day, I have no vested interest in WSU's academic credibility.)

[MoValley John]

I am a firm believer in a player stipend and I am a firm believer in dropping the NBA'S silly age and year from graduation rules. You let kids that want to go to school, go to school, and kids that want to turn pro, turn pro. The kids at school don't starve, and if a kid is stupid enough to overestimate his ability, then it's only his own fault.

instead, we end up with a joke of a system and John Calipari is the head ringleader. Here is where I think the whole thing is funny, Calipari can't win if he doesn't cheat. I know the NBA and the NCAA are two different animals, but he is the poster child of the college coach that couldn't do it at the NBA level. He made a mockery of the Nets, lasted only three years and was run out on a rail. Then he returns to college ball with this whole new schtick, the guy That knows how to make successful NBA'ers. The guy is a fraud. He simply buys one and dones,plain and simple. Always has, always will.

If the NCAA just lifted everything and turned recruiting into a bidding war, he and Kentucky would be done. They would get outbid by everyone as KU has fewer resources than many other institutions. John doesn't want change, he can't win in a free for all. John wants to be like Capone and flaunt it, never get punished. Calipari flourishes in this environment. So getting past all this debate, yeah, crown Kentucky's ass right now.

[ShockBand]

If the pros had enough spots in the D-League, or developed a "minor league" system like baseball, would the current baseball rule work? I think it still is either go pro out of HS or commit to three years of college.

[wufan]

I am a firm believer in a player stipend and I am a firm believer in dropping the NBA'S silly age and year from graduation rules. You let kids that want to go to school, go to school, and kids that want to turn pro, turn pro. The kids at school don't starve, and if a kid is stupid enough to overestimate his ability, then it's only his own fault.

I'm in agreement here. Controlling everything that an institution can do/not do makes it impossible to follow the rules and gives an advantage to those that want to cheat.

[Rlh04d]

If the pros had enough spots in the D-League, or developed a "minor league" system like baseball, would the current baseball rule work? I think it still is either go pro out of HS or commit to three years of college.

I think it would definitely work. The question is, does the NBA want it to work?

They seem to like this current system. Both the NBA and the NFL get minor leagues with high level coaching and competition without having to pay a dime for it. And all it costs is the soul of quite a few universities.

I think if the NCAA started actually enforcing academic standards, the NBA would have to abandon the rule. Otherwise players would simply go overseas or a new professional league would start up in the US to meet the demand, once enough top players were ineligible to play in college. They would artificially create competition for themselves -- not strong competition, but still a level of competition that could get a television contract and make inroads into their markets, which they could kill with a simple rule change.