All-Time Best Shocker PG

[Play Angry]

I'm assuming my sarcasm meter is broken......

Nobody and i mean nobody telegraphed cross-court passes better than Mike Cohen's point guards.

[jocoshock]

I respect that a lot of people disagree with me on this. I just don't see it, though. Wilt was one of the most dominant of all time. Wilt at his peak doesn't score more than 20 points against Shaq (THE shaq, not ours) at his peak. Just look at their bodies. Bill Russell was incredible in his time. I just think he'd struggle to make an all-star game in the current NBA. I do believe my argument holds true more for big guys than it does for guards. Even so, FVV is built like a tank (which means Cotton is built like a freakin' nuclear fallout shelter). Players are faster, stronger, and are playing a more complex game than ever before.

The real question is: how many would Shaq score against Wilt or Bill...

[1972Shocker]

I respect that a lot of people disagree with me on this. I just don't see it, though. Wilt was one of the most dominant of all time. Wilt at his peak doesn't score more than 20 points against Shaq (THE shaq, not ours) at his peak. Just look at their bodies. Bill Russell was incredible in his time. I just think he'd struggle to make an all-star game in the current NBA. I do believe my argument holds true more for big guys than it does for guards. Even so, FVV is built like a tank (which means Cotton is built like a freakin' nuclear fallout shelter). Players are faster, stronger, and are playing a more complex game than ever before.

You are right it is difficult to compare across decades, especially multiple decades. However, what has changed is the game and how players are developed and conditioned. What kind of body would Wilt have had if he hit the weights like modern players do.

The game today, I believe has become much more physical. In the 1960's basketball players were instructed to avoid lifting weights (especially upper-body work) so as to not become muscle-bound. The focus was on developing strong legs and stamina. After all you didn't have 8 media time-outs a game to rest up so stamina was much more important back then. In those days almost everyone was a multi-sport athlete. Something that has become less and less common these days. So the way players are developed, trained and conditioned has changed drastically.

I think perhaps the biggest change though is the depth of high-quality athletes in the game. The pool of talent to choose from has grown tremendously from those days. That's one reason the Gonzaga's, VCU's and Wichita State's of the world can still compete with the big boys in basketball and not so much in football. Very, very unlikely that you will see a dominant run like UCLA had under John Wooden again. Coach Wooden was a great coach, but he also was coaching the cream of the crop when the crop was not nearly as large as it is today.

Back in the 1960's and into the 1970's high scoring superstars were very common. You simply don't see that as much today. Part of that is because of the improved depth of quality players. It is very difficult to win big on the back of one player anymore. No question the game has changed a lot.

[jdshock]

You are right it is difficult to compare across decades, especially multiple decades. However, what has changed is the game and how players are developed and conditioned. What kind of body would Wilt have had if he hit the weights like modern players do.

The game today, I believe has become much more physical. In the 1960's basketball players were instructed to avoid lifting weights (especially upper-body work) so as to not become muscle-bound. The focus was on developing strong legs and stamina. After all you didn't have 8 media time-outs a game to rest up so stamina was much more important back then. In those days almost everyone was a multi-sport athlete. Something that has become less and less common these days. So the way players are developed, trained and conditioned has changed drastically.

I think perhaps the biggest change though is the depth of high-quality athletes in the game. The pool of talent to choose from has grown tremendously from those days. That's one reason the Gonzaga's, VCU's and Wichita State's of the world can still compete with the big boys in basketball and not so much in football. Very, very unlikely that you will see a dominant run like UCLA had under John Wooden again. Coach Wooden was a great coach, but he also was coaching the cream of the crop when the crop was not nearly as large as it is today.

Back in the 1960's and into the 1970's high scoring superstars were very common. You simply don't see that as much today. Part of that is because of the improved depth of quality players. It is very difficult to win big on the back of one player anymore. No question the game has changed a lot.

I agree with all of this. And it's a good enough reason not to dismiss players like Moore because I have no idea just how good they would be if they started at five years old in 1995 as opposed to 1945.

Good points, 72

[shockerfanmas]

Come on guys, there's only 1 answer to this question. The greatest PG in Wichita State history has to be Tyrone Shoelace. He invented the crossover dribble for gosh sakes!

On a serious note, FVV is definitely making a claim to the title of greatest PG in Wichita State history. I was also a huge fan of Clevin Hannah.

[Shock Top]

Come on guys, there's only 1 answer to this question. The greatest PG in Wichita State history has to be Tyrone Shoelace. He invented the crossover dribble for gosh sakes!

@Tyrone Shoelace:, was amazing (back in the early 70's) ;)

[CBB_Fan]

I respect that a lot of people disagree with me on this. I just don't see it, though. Wilt was one of the most dominant of all time. Wilt at his peak doesn't score more than 20 points against Shaq (THE shaq, not ours) at his peak. Just look at their bodies. Bill Russell was incredible in his time. I just think he'd struggle to make an all-star game in the current NBA. I do believe my argument holds true more for big guys than it does for guards. Even so, FVV is built like a tank (which means Cotton is built like a freakin' nuclear fallout shelter). Players are faster, stronger, and are playing a more complex game than ever before.

I wouldn't say that Wilt would get pushed around by Shaq. Shaq is a freak physical specimen, but so was Wilt. Early on he was comparably skinny, but he was the first major basketball player to push weight training and went from 220 pounds at KU to 320 by the end of his career with a bench press near 500 lbs. A lot of his achievements are hearsay, but he did participate in track and left behind some actual numbers. His Big 8 winning high jump would have placed 5th in the Olympics held that same year, and his other numbers would have put him close to being the best decathlete on the planet. Plus his stamina was unheard of; he played 48.2 MPG one season.

If he played against Shaq, the main advantage Shaq would have wouldn't be his physicality but decades of advancement in the game itself. Wilt Chamberlain shot a ton of shots that just weren't very effective to show that he wasn't just a power player, as did most of the centers of that time. By the time of Shaq and Hakeem the league had evolved and big men weren't constrained by the bad fundamentals of the 50s and 60s, just as guards stopped shooting two handed set shots. I think Wilt would probably be the best center in the NBA today by a wide margin, though that is partially do to the historical weakness at the position at the moment (plenty of good centers, few great).

Bill Russell would probably be more of a Anthony Davis type lanky PF today, instead of a center. He was a lot more athletic than people probably think, athletic enough to be a top player in the NBA today. But he would probably be closer to a Ben Wallace type player, a mainly defensive player with an offensive game below modern standards. Still one of the top PFs in the league, but he wouldn't be competing for any scoring titles.

[Shocker1976]

I respect that a lot of people disagree with me on this. I just don't see it, though. Wilt was one of the most dominant of all time. Wilt at his peak doesn't score more than 20 points against Shaq (THE shaq, not ours) at his peak. Just look at their bodies. Bill Russell was incredible in his time. I just think he'd struggle to make an all-star game in the current NBA. I do believe my argument holds true more for big guys than it does for guards. Even so, FVV is built like a tank (which means Cotton is built like a freakin' nuclear fallout shelter). Players are faster, stronger, and are playing a more complex game than ever before.

jdshock I am assuming that you never saw Wilt play; perhaps you are too young, very unfortunate for you.

As I enjoyed watching both men play during their prime IMO Wilt would have dominated Shaq (one of the heaviest and slowest [if not the heaviest) NBA players] just as he dominated every NBA player against whom he played (Bill Russell, Nate Thurmond, Bob Lanier, Kareem, etc.). He was 7' 1" and 275 pounds with almost no body fat and incredible strength. When Kareem joined the NBA with his media described "unstoppable Sky Hook", Wilt blocked Kareem's sky hook at will (you tube has film of this if you care to google). What NBA center playing today do you think would dominate Wilt? For the most part they are all shorter, weigh less and lack Wilt's physical stamina.

You should also investigate the physical stature of Oscar; he played at 6' 5" and 225 lbs - faster and stronger than all the point guards against whom he played.

[Shocker1976]

Cleo was great but he played center.

Cleo was 6'3" and listed as a forward but my dad told me he played whatever position Ralph asked him to play, including guard.

[SHOXAAC]

Cleo was 6'3" and listed as a forward but my dad told me he played whatever position Ralph asked him to play, including guard.

I always thought he was at least 6-5.

[pinstripers]

Ernie Moore is the greatest PG in Shocker history, though I expect him to move back to 2nd place this season.

[pinstripers]

I respect that a lot of people disagree with me on this. I just don't see it, though. Wilt was one of the most dominant of all time. Wilt at his peak doesn't score more than 20 points against Shaq (THE shaq, not ours) at his peak. Just look at their bodies. Bill Russell was incredible in his time. I just think he'd struggle to make an all-star game in the current NBA. I do believe my argument holds true more for big guys than it does for guards. Even so, FVV is built like a tank (which means Cotton is built like a freakin' nuclear fallout shelter). Players are faster, stronger, and are playing a more complex game than ever before.

"I won back-to-back state championships in high school, back-to-back NCAA championships in college. I won an NBA championship my first year in the league, an NBA championship in my last year, and nine in between."-----Bill Russell

[1979Shocker]

I wouldn't say that Wilt would get pushed around by Shaq. Shaq is a freak physical specimen, but so was Wilt. Early on he was comparably skinny, but he was the first major basketball player to push weight training and went from 220 pounds at KU to 320 by the end of his career with a bench press near 500 lbs. A lot of his achievements are hearsay, but he did participate in track and left behind some actual numbers. His Big 8 winning high jump would have placed 5th in the Olympics held that same year, and his other numbers would have put him close to being the best decathlete on the planet. Plus his stamina was unheard of; he played 48.2 MPG one season.

If he played against Shaq, the main advantage Shaq would have wouldn't be his physicality but decades of advancement in the game itself. Wilt Chamberlain shot a ton of shots that just weren't very effective to show that he wasn't just a power player, as did most of the centers of that time. By the time of Shaq and Hakeem the league had evolved and big men weren't constrained by the bad fundamentals of the 50s and 60s, just as guards stopped shooting two handed set shots. I think Wilt would probably be the best center in the NBA today by a wide margin, though that is partially do to the historical weakness at the position at the moment (plenty of good centers, few great).

Bill Russell would probably be more of a Anthony Davis type lanky PF today, instead of a center. He was a lot more athletic than people probably think, athletic enough to be a top player in the NBA today. But he would probably be closer to a Ben Wallace type player, a mainly defensive player with an offensive game below modern standards. Still one of the top PFs in the league, but he wouldn't be competing for any scoring titles.

Who would win in a free throw shooting content between Shaq and Wilt?

[Rlh04d]

Fred will be the first guard in the rafters at this pace. I'd say that makes him the best PG in Shox history.

He'll secure his spot in the rafters with a year to go at this pace.

[ciaomichael]

Tony Martin deserves to be on the top 5 PG list. On a team full of stars, he did everything his team needed. Very quick, nice ball distributer,solid defender, good jump shot - just overall very solid. On the other hand, Calvin Bruton doesn't deserve to be on the list. Bruton was flashy, even exciting in spurts, but was horribly inconsistent. As a fan, cheering for him was like being on a roller coaster - screaming one minute and groaning the next. Randy Smithson was an outstanding player, but he wasn't a point guard. He played the #2 guard.