Cleanthony Early to the New York Knicks

[Dan]

I don't think there was much Cle bashing after the strip club incident. I think most of us were like - "****, that sucks, hope he learned a lesson". He puts his head down, goes to the D League and never really got to play and now he needs to restart his career. He's given an opportunity to play in Greece and before we know it he's quitting the team and bashing management on twitter. I hope Cle gets a chance to revive his career. He's still young and he still has talent, but the last thing he needs at this point is a stigma attached that he's difficult to work with or has conduct issues. Maybe all this is getting blown out of proportion, time will tell.

[jdshock]

I don't think there was much Cle bashing after the strip club incident. I think most of us were like - "****, that sucks, hope he learned a lesson". He puts his head down, goes to the D League and never really got to play and now he needs to restart his career. He's given an opportunity to play in Greece and before we know it he's quitting the team and bashing management on twitter. I hope Cle gets a chance to revive his career. He's still young and he still has talent, but the last thing he needs at this point is a stigma attached that he's difficult to work with or has conduct issues. Maybe all this is getting blown out of proportion, time will tell.

The strip club incident was heavily debated in this thread: http://shockernet.net/forum/showthre...leanthony-Shot. A thread in which you and I both participated.

If Cle was "bashing management" on twitter by sharing the text messages he had with management, then there was absolutely "Cle bashing" going on in that thread. Again, not trying to re-start the strip club debate. There were 175 posts on the subject nearly two years ago. Just saying let's be clear about what happened this time. Cle voluntarily left the club but publicly it was stated that he was kicked off for disciplinary reasons. Cle was sharing proof that he voluntarily left.

[moshock]

I'm not judging Cle but everybody knows

You don't tug on Supermans cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger
and you don't mess around at 3 AM in NYC

[ShockTalk]

How much is a woman who wears a tight dress to blame for being raped? Would she be blameless if she had worn something less revealing?

As to the first part, none, assuming that was all she was doing. As to the second part, rapists are an odd lot. One can never be sure what their trigger is. Now if she's walking in a seeder part of NYC where strip clubs are at 3 AM with a lot of jewelry on, it's still not her fault, but one cannot say she's blameless either as she made some choices that added to her be less safe.

How about the person who parks their BMW in a public parking spot downtown and has it stolen? How much do we blame him for failing to either park it in a secured area or drive a less valuable vehicle?

I assume if he can afford the BMW, he can afford the insurance. Was a secure parking place available near by? One should choose things wisely. Sh*t happens and sometimes, there's a reason it happens more often.

I got into an accident a few years ago during evening rush hour--I was rear ended by a drunk driver. The risk of accidents rise dramatically during rush hour. I should have known better than to drive at that time, right? Clearly I exercised poor judgment, so is the drunk driver just as guilty as I am for the accident?

Clearly, you understood the "risk" and took that heightened risk, but it was a reasonable and acceptable risk. However, in this case, it was someone else who exercised poor judgment. Got drunk, compounded by driving, compounded again by driving during rush hour. He chose poorly.

Seriously, where do we draw the line? I'm all for personal responsibility, but when bad things happen to good people the last thing we need to do is blame the victim.

I do believe Cle is good people. However, if you are all for personal responsibility, how can you ignore compounded risk by the victim? I wonder if Cle's mama thinks he's blameless?

[WSUwatcher]

I do believe Cle is good people. However, if you are all for personal responsibility, how can you ignore compounded risk by the victim? I wonder if Cle's mama thinks he's blameless?

Good point, ST. Sometimes people are so caught up in not assessing blame or criticizing that they lose sight of the difference between blaming and identifying foolish behavior for what it is.

Like you, I believe (observing as I do from the outside) that Cle is a good guy, and I wish him well.

But I have a hunch you're right about his mom, and I think one could probably say the same about Fred VanVleet's stepfather the cop. Can you imagine what Joe Danforth would have had to say to FVV after such an incident? Of course, it would never have happened to FVV in the first place, just as I and others have noted that it wouldn't have happened to Baker. But it did happen to Cle; and yes, he was unlucky -- but it wasn't all just bad luck. Let's hope he finds a way to prosper playing basketball, and to stay out of harm's way (although I join Aargh in hoping, too, that he has a Plan B and a degree).

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

As to the first part, none, assuming that was all she was doing. As to the second part, rapists are an odd lot. One can never be sure what their trigger is. Now if she's walking in a seeder part of NYC where strip clubs are at 3 AM with a lot of jewelry on, it's still not her fault, but one cannot say she's blameless either as she made some choices that added to her be less safe.


I assume if he can afford the BMW, he can afford the insurance. Was a secure parking place available near by? One should choose things wisely. Sh*t happens and sometimes, there's a reason it happens more often.


Clearly, you understood the "risk" and took that heightened risk, but it was a reasonable and acceptable risk. However, in this case, it was someone else who exercised poor judgment. Got drunk, compounded by driving, compounded again by driving during rush hour. He chose poorly.


I do believe Cle is good people. However, if you are all for personal responsibility, how can you ignore compounded risk by the victim? I wonder if Cle's mama thinks he's blameless?

Could he have made better choices? Yes.

Is it for us to criticize him for not making those choices? No. Is it for us to determine how much he is to blame for his situation? No.

That's my point.

[Aargh]

How much is a woman who wears a tight dress to blame for being raped? Would she be blameless if she had worn something less revealing?

If she then goes to a night club that can be reasonably expected to be full of serial rapists and stays there until 3 o'clock in the company of a hooker, she might still be a victim, but she'd be a really stupid victim.

[ShockTalk]

Could he have made better choices? Yes.

Is it for us to criticize him for not making those choices? No. Is it for us to determine how much he is to blame for his situation? No.

That's my point.

I believe we have come to common ground, RMS.

Sometimes we confuse criticize with concern. I believe those on this board do care about Cle and his future and want only the best for him. Being a fan board, his choices, in this particular case, get discussed. To some that may come off as being critical, a negative, yet to others, it is concern over choices because they care.

I could care less about "how much he is to blame" for that situation. It is only my hope that he understands he was not a blameless victim. We have a poster in a room in our house "21 Suggestions to Success". While others on that list could apply here, I like #21. "Don't do anything that wouldn't make your mother proud."

[RoyalShock]

Just so I understand, you're saying this had no impact, whatsoever, on some punk setting him up? That the time, place, people, and bling he was wearing, none of these, added to the likelihood of this happening?

The reaction to your implication is a symptom of our current society and inability to engage in civil discourse.

We can no longer point out the finer aspects of a remotely emotional topic and discuss it's merits. It's either all or none. 100% or 0%. It's emotion over logic and reason.

[pinstripers]

Somebody stole my truck. I left the keys in it.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

The reaction to your implication is a symptom of our current society and inability to engage in civil discourse.

We can no longer point out the finer aspects of a remotely emotional topic and discuss it's merits. It's either all or none. 100% or 0%. It's emotion over logic and reason.

Agreed, but is emotion over logic and reason always a bad thing?

I feel society is moving itself towards ignoring the humanity in situations. We are becoming less empathetic, less compassionate, and more concerned about whether something is simply right or wrong. If someone has appeared to have broken a law, we no longer care about that person's motivations or reasoning for doing so--we only care that the law has been broken and we never ask if the law makes sense or has unintended hurtful consequences. If a personal and subjective moral code has been broken, instead of exercising humility and compassion, we jump to our self-righteous pedestals. As the saying goes, good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. We are quick to forget our own past failings and rapid to point them out in others.

You see this frequently in matters from immigration to civil war statues. If indeed emotions are winning over logic and reason these days, it's because we're paying attention to our own and not anyone else's.

[RoyalShock]

Agreed, but is emotion over logic and reason always a bad thing?

It is when it squelches discussion that could help someone learn from someone else's mistakes, which could save people a lot of pain or even a life.

Empathy is fine, and good. But it shouldn't stop at what's happened in the past when it can be applied to what may happen in the future.

[RoyalShock]

Somebody stole my truck. I left the keys in it.

Totally not your fault. And nothing you could have done differently would have prevented it.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

It is when it squelches discussion that could help someone learn from someone else's mistakes, which could save people a lot of pain or even a life.

Empathy is fine, and good. But it shouldn't stop at what's happened in the past when it can be applied to what may happen in the future.

Agreed, again. That's why I implied that logic and reason over emotion is sometimes a good thing. But nowhere am I advocating not using mistakes as an opportunity to learn. And nowhere am I advocating abandoning personal responsibility. I'm just advocating a different approach. Less shaming, more support.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

Somebody stole my truck. I left the keys in it.

Totally not your fault. And nothing you could have done differently would have prevented it.

Yeah, uh literally no one is saying this should be the response. Literally no one. But thank you for proving your own point that it's impossible to have a civil discourse because finer points get taken to the extreme.

Somebody stole my truck. I left the keys in it.

Dude that sucks! Sorry to hear some punk took advantage of your mistake. I hope they catch the assclown.



Being nice isn't hard. Being understanding isn't hard. Not being a pompous jackass isn't hard.