Cleanthony Early Belongs in the Rafters

[Shock Top]

...oh, another thing I just thought about in your "ifs and buts and candied nuts" line of thinking, just think of what Stallworth's value could have been "IF" he would have had that final semester in his holster. WSU could have won the national title. WHO KNOWS WHAT HE COULD HAVE DONE!

So... You are proving my point?

A lot of people already think "The Rave" is the greatest ever. That just would have assured it for them.

[SHOXAAC]

So... You are proving my point?

A lot of people already think "The Rave" is the greatest ever. That just would have assured it for them.

No, only proved in your brain. There are more examples I could have included, but I didn't.

Two things here. Without the proof of history, there is no true way to predict. Second, re-read my comments about just having some fun with a poster I have great respect for. I'm emotionally fragile, as many of us are. Sometimes I like to just close my eyes and throw a dart at the wall. For whatever reason I felt compelled to comment on your well thought out and well intentioned observation. It's really pretty innocent. I don't mean any harm. When I do mean harm just ask Fever and Cold...I can get meaner, which I rarely do. It's all good with me...sorry about the Red Ryder...that probably threw this off course from jump.

[Shock Top]

No, only proved in your brain. There are more examples I could have included, but I didn't.

Two things here. Without the proof of history, there is no true way to predict. Second, re-read my comments about just having some fun with a poster I have great respect for. I'm emotionally fragile, as many of us are. Sometimes I like to just close my eyes and throw a dart at the wall. For whatever reason I felt compelled to comment on your well thought out and well intentioned observation. It's really pretty innocent. I don't mean any harm. When I do mean harm just ask Fever and Cold...I can get meaner, which I rarely do. It's all good with me...sorry about the Red Ryder...that probably threw this off course from jump.

No worries. I understand what you mean.

Once I get engaged in an argument/fight/what-have-you it's hard for me to stop. I'm like the mutts HCGM recruits, I keep going!

My momma always said i should be a lawyer or something. Maybe I'll look into that!

[ciaomichael]

For comparison's sake:

Cliff Levingston- 3rd Team AA by Basketball Times (who?), never higher than Honorable Mention AA by any of the Consensus sources, 3 year player, 1 NCAA Appearance
Antoine Carr- 3rd Team by AP in 1983, HM in 1982, unlisted by other 3 Consensus sources, 1 NCAA Appearance


AC obviously deserves to be up there without any doubt. Cliff was definitely a borderline selection. Unless you are measuring purely based on offensive stats during apples vs. oranges eras, I think Cle's case is very solid.

Wasn't Cliff also a Playboy All American?

Also, I think a significant difference between Cliff and AC - at least at the time - was that Cliff left the program after WSU was put on probation, whereas AC was the hometown guy who stuck it out

[SHOXAAC]

No worries. I understand what you mean.

Once I get engaged in an argument/fight/what-have-you it's hard for me to stop. I'm like the mutts HCGM recruits, I keep going!

My momma always said i should be a lawyer or something. Maybe I'll look into that!

You're good, thanks for ultimately understanding me...not many do!!!

[Play Angry]

Wasn't Cliff also a Playboy All American?

Could be wrong, but I think that was preseason?

[wufan]

Could be wrong, but I think that was preseason?

Correct. Levingston was a pre-season PB AA.

[wufan]

A case against #11:

Statistically, he is not on the same level as any of the other five retired Jerseys. He is close, but no cigar. He isn't statistically as good as Cheese, Perez, or Warren Armstrong, all of which are not retired.

Cle only played two years.

Early benefitted from a strong supporting cast.

Early has no NBA career to speak of at this point.


A case for #11:

Cle is an All-American. He was first team All-MVC in both years in the conference.

Cle had more AA honors than Cliff and Antoine.

Early lead his team to a final four.

Early was at his best when the lights were shining brightest.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

A case against #11:

Statistically, he is not on the same level as any of the other five retired Jerseys. He is close, but no cigar. He isn't statistically as good as Cheese, Perez, or Warren Armstrong, all of which are not retired.

Cle only played two years.

Early benefitted from a strong supporting cast.

Early has no NBA career to speak of at this point.


A case for #11:

Cle is an All-American. He was first team All-MVC in both years in the conference.

Cle had more AA honors than Cliff and Antoine.

Early lead his team to a final four.

Early was at his best when the lights were shining brightest.

Cle benefited from a strong supporting cast?

Your argument against fell right there. Look at the other numbers in the rafters. All are there because they had a supporting cast.

[Dan]

you could argue both sides of anything. You could say Perez had good stats because he didn't have a good supporting cast. Had Early played with no supporting cast he would score 30 points a game.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

The supporting cast benefitted from having Cle

[wufan]

The supporting cast benefitted from having Cle

No issues tearing down this argument. I for one support Cle's retirement, but I wanted to point out what some might say.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

No issues tearing down this argument. I for one support Cle's retirement, but I wanted to point out what some might say.

Oh I completely understand what you were doing. It's an argument that has been and will be made, which completely ignores the reality of how much attention defenses had to--I repeat, HAD to--pay to Cle, which opened up options for Baker and Fred.

I support retirement as well, and I believe in five years, or however long we have to wait, it will be even more clear to us than it is now.

[proshox]

This conversation will be interesting next year. It will be interesting how teams will change their game plans against the Shocker Offense. He was an absolute matchup nightmare and it helped everyone else out. I expect things to be fine, but any type of significant performance drop will have to be tied to Clea' absence.

Especially since he wasn't a black hole.

The last significant matchup nightmare the shockers lost was Paul Miller...

[60Shock]

In addition to all the favorable comments stated previously about Early, in two of the toughest and most meaningful games the Shocks have played this century (unfortunately both loses), he played magnificently like the All American he is and carried the team in crutch situations right up to the end in both games.

That's what great players and All Americans are supposed to do, but only the best accomplish it when it counts most.

On the other hand, Andrew Wiggins (who I personally like) who is unquestionably a great player, did not come through for his team when they needed him the most).

This is not a discussion about whether he could or could not be the Greatest Shocker ever if he would have been fortunate to play under Marshall for four years. That we will never know.

The question is was his overall performance worthy (during the two years he played for us) of his being in the Rafters? And the answer clearly should be that it certainly was.