Need Better coaching management with players with fouls

[ShockTalk]

While there are good points on both sides, I think that this is the best analysis of the issue on the thread.

Another factor to consider in a player sitting by coach decision vs sitting from fouling out is the coaching flexibility. If a guy is on the bench by coaching decision, if the dynamics of the game shift, you can always put him back in. Once he fouls out, the coach has lost his flexibility in managing his lineups for the rest of the game.

Didn't HCGM do this some in the Tennessee game with Early? On dead ball situations, put Early for the next offensive possession, take him out before a defensive one.

[1972Shocker]

Didn't HCGM do this some in the Tennessee game with Early? On dead ball situations, put Early for the next offensive possession, take him out before a defensive one.

Yes, he did. Quite a bit, although we pulled him a couple of times for some real poor judgment at the end of the game also.

[Ricardo del Rio]

Would you prefer Baker play the final 3 minutes or foul out having played an additional 8 minutes during the middle of the game?

Coach Marshall could rest Baker for a few minutes and then send him back into the game and believe there was be a high probability that Baker would not foul out. I was not saying that Baker would be held out of play, until the last three minutes of play.

The game coming down to the final minutes wasn't a foregone conclusion. If we played a stronger 5 on the floor for more of the middle of the game, the last few minutes likely wouldn't have mattered.

Of course, we are speculating. Maybe you should call in to the Coach's Corner Show and ask Coach Marshall about his cogitation.

I will say this, however. Coaches make decisions based upon "feel" and/or flow of the game all the time. I have no idea about Coach Marshall's thoughts on this subject. You should ask him.

[im4wsu]

I just looked at the play-by-play. FVV picked up his 2nd foul with 5:56 left and WSU leading 22-19. We led 33-32 at half. So under Tc's guidance we scored 11 points in 6 minutes, compared to 22 points in 14 minutes up to that point. TC was 4-4 on FT, so he must have been doing something right. He did have a turnover immediately after FVV departed, though.

Hoe many teams with their top three scores out for six minutes would only surrender two points of its lead ON THE ROAD?

[shockmonster]

Of course, we are speculating. Maybe you should call in to the Coach's Corner Show and ask Coach Marshall about his cogitation.

I'll get the popcorn.

[shockmonster]

I just looked at the play-by-play. FVV picked up his 2nd foul with 5:56 left and WSU leading 22-19. We led 33-32 at half. So under Tc's guidance we scored 11 points in 6 minutes, compared to 22 points in 14 minutes up to that point. TC was 4-4 on FT, so he must have been doing something right. He did have a turnover immediately after FVV departed, though.

Hoe many teams with their top three scores out for six minutes would only surrender two points of its lead ON THE ROAD?

I don't think that Tekele played the point badly. He led us, and kept our head above water. He doesn't look comfortable at the position, and most importantly when he is playing that position, our best two wings (Baker, Cotton) are not playing their natural positions on top of FVV not being in the game.

[Kung Wu]

Would you prefer Baker play the final 3 minutes or foul out having played an additional 8 minutes during the middle of the game?

The game coming down to the final minutes wasn't a foregone conclusion. If we played a stronger 5 on the floor for more of the middle of the game, the last few minutes likely wouldn't have mattered.

1) There is a deeper statistical reason that coaches protect players to the end game and it is partially borrowed from soccer. Statistically most goals in soccer are scored in the last few minutes of each half (especially the second half). It's also true in basketball. In fact, @im4wsu: has tracked that this season and I was quick to notice that we are following that trend very nicely (http://shockernet.net/forum/showthre...l=1#post356083). You want your studs playing in the most productive periods of the game -- and that means the last few minutes of each half.

2) The cat-mouse game begins at the end game. That's when coaches have the timeouts stored up and execute the most set plays. You want your best weapons on the court in order to execute those set plays.

3) If we ever go to overtime with any three of the Four Horsemen fouled out (Van Vleet, Baker, Cotton, and Early) -- we will be seriously struggling to win that match. But that's not a good argument really for not playing them with 4 fouls at the end, because you want to win the game before it goes to OT. But still, this is a consideration that should be mentioned. As a side, I'd be nervous as a cow patty in the hot Texas sun even if we had two of the Four Horsemen fouled out going into OT.

[DUShock]

This thread is 68 posts too long.

[WSUwatcher]

My guess is Ron Baker's ankle was bothering him and coach took the opportunity to rest him until the final push.

Almost certainly true, rjl. Baker had played 32 minutes on a bad ankle three nights earlier because he was needed and was somehow able to do it effectively, but it apparently took its toll. Frankly, I'm surprised he gave as much as he did last night, but he was not himself defensively. You play defense first with your feet, and when one of your ankles isn't working it's hard to do that.

The last thing anyone in WSU colors needed was for Baker to play even more while limited as he was, and to think that would somehow have helped the cause isn't thinking very well. Personally, I hope he sits until Valley play begins. His ankle could use the rest, and the team needs him in better shape than he is now.

P.S. You could have held it to 67, DU.

[Blackmag]

you got to remember ron picked up a foul without touching the player. I think it was more an ankle issue and coach was trying to save the ankle and ron for crunch time...hcgm has a lot of faith in our bench and this was a good time to gain some trust and experience on the road against a team who doesnt lose at home...i belive in coach...theirs alot of ways to play different situations in a game coach just chose this one

[Rosewood]

I honestly thought after last year we would be done with stupid threads like this.

Ways I know HCGM was right to handle the fouls the way he did
* Shox won
* He is HCGM
* It is the opposite of what someone on the internet said to do

[rrshock]

But @Rosewood:, don't you know that the internet is always right?

[Jamar Howard 4 President]

I honestly thought after last year we would be done with stupid threads like this.

Ways I know HCGM was right to handle the fouls the way he did
* Shox won
* He is HCGM
* It is the opposite of what someone on the internet said to do

So if a team wins the game, every single strategy it used throughout the game was the correct one and zero mistakes were made? Classic message board comment with zero critical thinking skills.

[Shocker85]

This thread is 68 posts too long.

I see what you did there. Well played.

[ShockerFever]

So if a team wins the game, every single strategy it used throughout the game was the correct one and zero mistakes were made? Classic message board comment with zero critical thinking skills.

For a guy complaining about WSU posters being arrogant dicks on message boards in another thread, you sure need to look in the mirror a bit more often.