wsu @ Missouri State game thread

[Ta Town Shocker]

Baker is shooting 32% from 3.

Regardless he's still the best shooter on the team in my mind.

[OTR Shockfan]

Regardless he's still the best shooter on the team in my mind.

That must be a pretty weird place then
,, (your mind ) lol sorry but YOU hung that one out there lol

[Dave Stalwart]

I enjoy reading a thread about how bad our shooting is when we are 18-2. Not because I'm trying to say "scoreboard" but because i feel like I've never seen an 18-2 team consistently shoot such a low percentage. Obviously it has to get better and it's entirely possible that it might not.

The fun part is that if it does, we have big things ahead.

[Dan]

Regardless he's still the best shooter on the team in my mind.

Even though wiggins didn't score a lot last night, just being on the floor for a period of time opened up the middle for Carl and Cle to do some damage. It's not always about points.

[SHOXAAC]

Remember Cle had a horrendous 3-point % "early" on in the year. I believe it's in the mid-30's now.

[OTR Shockfan]

The percentages sure as Haitties wont get any better if ya don't shoot any more ,,,, WTF ??????

[Kung Wu]

I enjoy reading a thread about how bad our shooting is when we are 18-2. Not because I'm trying to say "scoreboard" but because i feel like I've never seen an 18-2 team consistently shoot such a low percentage. Obviously it has to get better and it's entirely possible that it might not.

The fun part is that if it does, we have big things ahead.

This made me go back and compare our current season with SIU's Sweet-16 season in 2007. Check it out:

SIU averaged 62.9 points per game (285th in the country!) versus WSU averaging 70.3 ppg (110th in the country).
SIU averaged 56.2 allowed points per game (3rd in the country!) versus WSU averaging 59.7 allowed ppg (43rd in the country).

SIU had an overall record of 29-7 (15-3 in conference play), with an RPI of #7.
WSU has an overall record of 18-2 (7-1 in conference play), with an RPI currently at #16.

SIU's top 25 going into the NCAA tourney was 1-1.
WSU's top 25 going into the tourney will be at least 2-0 with possibly 3-0, 2-1, 4-0, 3-1, or 2-2.

SIU lost to Evansville that year.

Defense can take you a long, long ways. But not forever.

[Aargh]

I tried to explain my opinion about defense and shooting % back in the day when SIU played great D, but didn't have a shooter on the team - and was doing things like going 18-2 and winning Valley titles. Nobody bought it then (SIU fans), so I doubt WSU fans will be any more receptive.

There's only so much practice time available. Every minute you spend working on D is a minute you do not spend working on O. A team that strongly emphasizes D is likely to have problems on O because they haven't practiced that part of the game nearly as much. WSU works on D. CU works on O. WSU O is not that hot. CU's D is MIA.

You pick your poison. Do you want to win games by scoring more than your opponent (O) or do you want to win by not letting your opponent score as much as you score (D). Many good shooters are streaky. If you're a "shoot the lights out" team and a couple of guys are off on the same night - you're fired. (Edit: That was supposed to be "fried", but "fired" works just as well.) Good defenders are more apt to have consistency.

What's working for WSU now is pretty much what SIU was doing when they dominated the league. Emphasize D which costs you some efficiency on O.

[Shockeriffic]

Sub 45 field goal percentage is not going to get it in post season play and may cause severe heart burn, during the balance of regular season play.

I am somewhat mystified that Nick does not have a bigger role in the offense. He impresses me with his dribble drives, even though he missed two layups in the Blue Bird game. Also, he is very good, when he has open 3 ball shots. I would like to see more plays run for him. Also, I would like to see more dribble drives from him. I would like to see more 3 balls from him. I would like to see more minutes for him....but I don't think it is gonna happen.

Other:
1. On the post game show, Coach Marshall said Jake will not shoot 3 balls. He is shooting at a 9% rate. The 3 ball that he threw up in the Blue Bird game was just plain awful. It clanged off the left side of the rim. It barely drew iron.
2. I would not allow Tekele to shoot 3 balls. He is firing them up at a 13% rate.
3. An overall reduction in 3 ball attempts would be fine with me.
4. If Demetric was put on a 3 ball diet, it would be fine with me. He is shooting 29%.
5. Ditto for Fred. He is shooting 27%.
6. The Shocks are shooting 52% from 2 and 32% from 3. More 2, less 3.
7. By the way, Tekele shot 35% from 3 last year. The fall off is a mystery.
8. Armstead is shooting 35%, but it seems he is very streaky.

Field goal percentage is the Achilles heal of this team. Duh.

Keep in mind the small sample sizes involved in those percentages. Normally there is a difference in ability between a 35% and 27% shooter. However last year Tekele was 8-23 from three and this year Van Vleet is 6-22. In non-con Early was only shooting 20% from three. Let's let Fred get a few more attempts in there before we make a judgement on his shooting ability.

[The Mad Hatter]

I tried to explain my opinion about defense and shooting % back in the day when SIU played great D, but didn't have a shooter on the team - and was doing things like going 18-2 and winning Valley titles. Nobody bought it then (SIU fans), so I doubt WSU fans will be any more receptive.

There's only so much practice time available. Every minute you spend working on D is a minute you do not spend working on O. A team that strongly emphasizes D is likely to have problems on O because they haven't practiced that part of the game nearly as much. WSU works on D. CU works on O. WSU O is not that hot. CU's D is MIA.

You pick your poison. Do you want to win games by scoring more than your opponent (O) or do you want to win by not letting your opponent score as much as you score (D). Many good shooters are streaky. If you're a "shoot the lights out" team and a couple of guys are off on the same night - you're fired. (Edit: That was supposed to be "fried", but "fired" works just as well.) Good defenders are more apt to have consistency.

What's working for WSU now is pretty much what SIU was doing when they dominated the league. Emphasize D which costs you some efficiency on O.

I understand what you are getting at, but last year's WSU team was one of the most efficient offensive teams in the nation and I don't think that Marshall has dramatically changed with way he coached that team and the way he coaches this one.

I think that our offensive struggles have far more to do with the fact that two of our best outside shooters are injured, our best post scorer missed significant time, and (perhaps most importantly) this all happened to a team that is composed of guys who have not played together very much. Likewise, I'm not convinced that CU works on offense a lot more than us. Rather, having a scorer like Doug McDermott will naturally make you look good on offense and open up looks for everyone else. In terms of what is a result of coaching, I would not be surprised to see Marshall coached teams be more offensive efficient than McDermott coached teams once his son isn't at the center of his offense (I could be wrong though).

According to KenPom, last season WSU was #13 in adjusted offense and #18 in adjusted defense. This year we are #49 in adjusted offense and #33 in adjusted defense. Marshall will always emphasize D (as most successful coaches do), but he doesn't lack in ability to coach O. This team just needs to keep developing chemistry and start hitting some open looks.

[C0|dB|00ded]

If people keep trying to compare Wichita State with SIU-C of old, I am going to have to change my boxers from laughing so much. The offensive firepower we have on this team is 3x what any Carbondale Clown Club had on their best day. SIU-C wasn't even recruiting basketball players for a while. We have at least 4 players on our team that can go off for 20+ on any given night with sufficient playing time: Wiggins, Hall, Early, and Armstead. SIU-C had one tremendous penetrator and one solid power forward... that was it. Our scoring is very balanced with usually 4-5 players in double figures every game.

***ing SIU-C... give me a break.


T


...:cool:

[Dave Stalwart]

A tremendous penetrator?

[C0|dB|00ded]

A tremendous penetrator?

Darren Brooks. Enough said.


T


...:cool:

[The Mad Hatter]

Darren Brooks. Enough said.


T


...:cool:

Darren Brooks was a freshman reserve on the first SIU team to reach the Sweet Sixteen (2002). Darren Brooks was not on the next SIU Sweet Sixteen team (2007). That team was led by Tatum and Faulkner.

[Kung Wu]

The offensive firepower we have on this team is 3x what any Carbondale Clown Club had on their best day.

No, it's about 7 points per game better. That's not insignificant -- it's the difference in being terrible (285th) compared with mediocre (110th best).

But let's compare firepower.

That Sweet-16 team's highest scoring players average was: 15.2 (Jamaal Tatum) ours is 15.4 (Early). Practically identical. Jamaal's career high was 37 points by the way .

Their next best player averaged: 12.3 (Randall Falker) ours is 13.3 (Hall). Edge to WSU. (Hall averages one more rebound per game than Falker did too). Randall had a career high 30 game against Evansville. Dunno what Hall's career high is, but I am pretty sure it isn't 30 -- we could see him hit that before it's over though.

Their next best player averaged: 11.3 (Matt Shaw) ours is 9.4 (Armstead). Strong edge to SIU. He had a career high 26 point game against Minnesota. Malcolm's career high is 21.

Their next best player averaged: 9.9 (Tony Young) ours is 8.6 (Williams). Edge SIU. He had a career high 30 point game against Bradley. I think Demetrics career high is 16?

Their next best player averaged: 6.3 (Brian Mullins) ours is 6.0 (Cotton) or 7.3 (Baker). He had a career high 24 point game against St. Mary's.

What makes WSU's offense better than SIU isn't that we have guys that can go off for 20+ points on any given night (so did they). It's that we have at least 2 more guys that can contribute substantial output consistently (Wiggins and Baker).

And we're tougher than a cow patty in the Texas sun.

Would you like a glass of water now that you have reviewed those numbers and would like to retract your 3x statement?