A New Type of NIL

[wsushockerdude]

That's incorrect.

Schools like Florida have what is called a lucrative conference media deal. Florida gets over $50M a year for simply being a member of the SEC. They have multiple direct/indirect avenues for funneling money in the direction of the kids.

Wichita State has ONLY their dwindling fanbase to keep them competitive in the NIL debacle.

But we are supposed to continue paying for everything else as well.

We are in a very bad situation.

And to my original point, it's not going to change - this is what happens when big money gets thrown out in the open. Your point about assuming that in a free market all individuals are acting rational is the first thing I would tutor my students on in Economics...followed by the phrase "BUT consumers and humans act irrationally". Are you hoping that regulation will be enacted to change it, in your earlier model, to something more of a results based payment for these players?

[Maizerunner08]

And to my original point, it's not going to change - this is what happens when big money gets thrown out in the open. Your point about assuming that in a free market all individuals are acting rational is the first thing I would tutor my students on in Economics...followed by the phrase "BUT consumers and humans act irrationally". Are you hoping that regulation will be enacted to change it, in your earlier model, to something more of a results based payment for these players?

Spot on. This train ain’t stopping. D1 athletics have already split, and unfortunately we’re on the wrong side of that split.

[Aargh]

The Genie is out of the bottle and it ain't going back in. It gave the power conferencews an unlimited number of wishes in the form of $$$. We're going to have to deal with the level of players we can get with the level of NIL $$ we can raise, and I'm not optimistic that we can get much in the way of NIL $$. Without NIL $$ to attract players we can't attract decent coaches.

WSU basketball used to be popular and was quite a social event. The loss of popularity ended its run as a premiere social event in the city. Both the pro-Marshall camp and the anti-Marshall camp hated the way the Marshall era ended. The anti-Marshall group just found the entire episode disgusting.

The end of the Marshall era ushered in the boring basketball era we're still in. Passing the ball around the perimeter and clanking up 3's at < 30% isn't enjoyable to watch and doesn't get the fans into the game. There's virtually no energy coming off the court or the sidelines to keep fans involved. Basketball is in the entertainment industry and right now WSU basketball isn't competing successfully in that area.

[ShockHat]

The Genie is out of the bottle and it ain't going back in. It gave the power conferencews an unlimited number of wishes in the form of $$$. We're going to have to deal with the level of players we can get with the level of NIL $$ we can raise, and I'm not optimistic that we can get much in the way of NIL $$. Without NIL $$ to attract players we can't attract decent coaches.

WSU basketball used to be popular and was quite a social event. The loss of popularity ended its run as a premiere social event in the city. Both the pro-Marshall camp and the anti-Marshall camp hated the way the Marshall era ended. The anti-Marshall group just found the entire episode disgusting.

The end of the Marshall era ushered in the boring basketball era we're still in. Passing the ball around the perimeter and clanking up 3's at < 30% isn't enjoyable to watch and doesn't get the fans into the game. There's virtually no energy coming off the court or the sidelines to keep fans involved. Basketball is in the entertainment industry and right now WSU basketball isn't competing successfully in that area.

If only all this could be fixed with a fat check from someone in the backyard.

Obviously he doesn’t have to. But sure would be nice to shave just a bit off political donations and get the local community (more importantly me ;) ) back in good spirits.

[C0|dB|00ded]

And to my original point, it's not going to change - this is what happens when big money gets thrown out in the open. Your point about assuming that in a free market all individuals are acting rational is the first thing I would tutor my students on in Economics...followed by the phrase "BUT consumers and humans act irrationally". Are you hoping that regulation will be enacted to change it, in your earlier model, to something more of a results based payment for these players?

I don't know if regulation could ever solve this problem. Certainly not at the NCAA level. The regulator has to have some actual teeth. Congress should seriously consider some kind of stabilizing measure because as important as athletics are to at least 150 universities across the country (maybe more), NIL has got to be causing some serious missteps here and there. Folks in this fine forum have already discussed tapping into the general endowment to pay these freakin' kids. That's absolutely insane.

I would think - at a minimum - the risk should be more equitable between the university and the prospective athlete. These kids are getting NBA/Euro-level packages having proven absolutely NOTHING. Compare that to a real draft prospect that has years of high-level collegiate play proving their worth. Even those "proven" players often go on to be league busts.

In a perfect world Congress (and the States) would come out and dictate the terms of intercollegiate athletics. It would allow a very nice stipend for each scholarship athlete - say, $50k per calendar year. This would be FAR better than any student in the past had legally enjoyed. The top 100-150 schools would immediate add this expense to their athletic departments and everybody would laugh (except for the SEC/B1G) about the NIL Wild West experiment. Kids would get some nice scratch, major athletic departments (universities?) wouldn't go bust, and the NFL/NBA/MLB would be happy. The entire instability would be corrected overnight.

This is how things would look if CB were ruler of the universe. Actually, if I were ruler of the universe I might take it down to $25K per year. $50k is pushing it for an 18 yr old that SHOULD be focused on studies and dunking.

[SubGod22]

I don't know if regulation could ever solve this problem. Certainly not at the NCAA level. The regulator has to have some actual teeth. Congress should seriously consider some kind of stabilizing measure because as important as athletics are to at least 150 universities across the country (maybe more), NIL has got to be causing some serious missteps here and there. Folks in this fine forum have already discussed tapping into the general endowment to pay these freakin' kids. That's absolutely insane.

I would think - at a minimum - the risk should be more equitable between the university and the prospective athlete. These kids are getting NBA/Euro-level packages having proven absolutely NOTHING. Compare that to a real draft prospect that has years of high-level collegiate play proving their worth. Even those "proven" players often go on to be league busts.

In a perfect world Congress (and the States) would come out and dictate the terms of intercollegiate athletics. It would allow a very nice stipend for each scholarship athlete - say, $50k per calendar year. This would be FAR better than any student in the past had legally enjoyed. The top 100-150 schools would immediate add this expense to their athletic departments and everybody would laugh (except for the SEC/B1G) about the NIL Wild West experiment. Kids would get some nice scratch, major athletic departments (universities?) wouldn't go bust, and the NFL/NBA/MLB would be happy. The entire instability would be corrected overnight.

This is how things would look if CB were ruler of the universe. Actually, if I were ruler of the universe I might take it down to $25K per year. $50k is pushing it for an 18 yr old that SHOULD be focused on studies and dunking.

To be fair, I don't think anyone has mentioned tapping into the general endowment. There has been talk about needing people to step up and create an NIL specific endowment to play the game.

The NCAA has been begging Congress for a few years now to step up and provide some regulation to keep things under control and that obviously hasn't happened. If DC can't benefit they're not going to spend too much time worrying about it.

[Kel Varnsen]

I've thought a lot about WSU's standing in the collegiate athletics hierarchy lately. I'm probably not going to give any necessarily new analysis here, so take it for what it's worth.

For the entire time that most of WSU's alumni have been alive, we've been a commuter school. You can disagree or hate that moniker, but it's mostly been true. You don't have the same ties that bind like you might with a college town and an alumni base that experienced a traditional college atmosphere. Where we managed to make up for that was with a basketball team and a coach who both exhibited the values of this community, or at least how the community sees itself...blue-collar, hard-working, simple, good people. Flawed, but good. Those were the ties that bound us as a program and the community that supported WSU Men's Basketball.

The nice thing about college sports and particularly college basketball at that time was that the recipe for success in college basketball was largely synchronous with those values. It rewarded coaches like Marshall who found diamonds in the rough. It rewarded coaches who built a program and communities who invested in those coaches.

But things are not the same anymore. One of the big reasons that this community could get behind the teams of Mark Turgeon and Gregg Marshall was that they truly identified with the players and coaches. They didn't see players who were just out for NIL money. They didn't see players who were looking for an easy route to playing time. They saw players like PJ Couisnard, Matt Brauer, Ramon Clemente, Toure Murry, Ben Smith, Ron Baker, Fred VanVleet, Tekele Cotton...I could go on. Sure, tournament upsets will continue to happen as long as the tournament still exists in its current format, but you'll likely see fewer, if any, program builders emerge at smaller schools. There won't be any more Gregg Marshalls, Rick Majeruses, or Bob McKillops.

There are a few true program builders left even at some of these big schools: Dan Hurley, Mark Few, Scott Drew, Bill Self, John Calipari, and Tom Izzo. Of those six, four are likely to retire soon. But they're the last of a dying breed. And the only active coach not on this list who is responsible for a national title team is Rick Pitino (I excluded him since he's been at Iona and St. John's recently). The unfortunate reality is that even with Gregg Marshall at the helm and the types of players I mentioned above, we'd still be bleeding at least some top players to the portal and NIL deals at other schools. Said differently, if those players were in the program in 2024 and Marshall was the coach, many would be gone after one year.

And that's simply not an environment where the culture around the city of Wichita and WSU Men's Basketball can thrive. Some other schools are fine with recycling players year after year in the pursuit of more national exposure or a year where you might have a shot to make a run in the tournament. But as I mentioned, the values rewarded by the incentive structure are simply not a fit for what this community values. I've thought about the question of "did we miss our window?" a lot lately as well. It burns me up to think that we missed that window, not only because it's probably gone for good, but also because winning a national title with Marshall and with the players on those rosters, particularly from 2012-2016, would have meant so much more to this community than if we somehow back up the Brinks truck next season, get a bunch of 5-star players and solid transfers by paying them $10M each, and win a national title next season. It still meant a ton to this community and to me personally, but unless something changes, that dream is gone.

Ultimately, while the environment of college athletics provides players means to make money now, I'm convinced it's not a net positive for the large swath of the college athlete population to be taught and incentivized to only chase money and personal gain while casting off the rewards of getting a college education, being part of a community and something bigger than themselves, and learning how to overcome adversity.

The only solution at this point is to send good money after bad across all sports, where we're going to struggle to compete even if we do raise the $7 million figure that Saal mentioned. That's not something that college boosters, particularly those in Wichita, can stomach. Unless something changes, I am fearful of the future of both our basketball team and our athletics program, and it has more to do with the environment of college athletics than a coach or AD.

[WINGdingBALLfling]

Wichita becomes a better place to live when Shocker basketball is competitive and supported. The synergy between the basketball program, Wichita State University, and the local community creates a momentum that fuels not only the school’s success but also propels our city forward. Just look at the accomplishments of the Men’s Basketball team under Marshall.. The energy generated by their success helped President Bardo push WSU to new heights with the innovation campus. Investment into the program is essential and we must recognize that without basketball’s prominence, WSU struggles to make the same impact. For business and community leaders, keeping the basketball program competitive helps keep Wichita State competitive as a viable school choice for prospective students and growth of our community. As a senior in high school, the excitement of the Final Four run pulled me back to WSU after considering other options. I hate to think how many talented students and future community members we'll lose if people give up on the school and athletic department.

[ShockerFever]

The Genie is out of the bottle and it ain't going back in. It gave the power conferencews an unlimited number of wishes in the form of $$$. We're going to have to deal with the level of players we can get with the level of NIL $$ we can raise, and I'm not optimistic that we can get much in the way of NIL $$. Without NIL $$ to attract players we can't attract decent coaches.

WSU basketball used to be popular and was quite a social event. The loss of popularity ended its run as a premiere social event in the city. Both the pro-Marshall camp and the anti-Marshall camp hated the way the Marshall era ended. The anti-Marshall group just found the entire episode disgusting.

The end of the Marshall era ushered in the boring basketball era we're still in. Passing the ball around the perimeter and clanking up 3's at < 30% isn't enjoyable to watch and doesn't get the fans into the game. There's virtually no energy coming off the court or the sidelines to keep fans involved. Basketball is in the entertainment industry and right now WSU basketball isn't competing successfully in that area.

Haters gonna hate

[Ta Town Shocker]

My overall question just ponders how Creighton has handled this so much better than we have.

I agree with the your general sentiment that we'd be light years ahead of where we are now if Turgeon or Marshall were the coach.

That said, Creighton has always been known as the snobby fan base that has $$. They have a medical, law, and dentistry school. In comparison, WSU offers nursing and dental hygiene. The purchasing power of WSU alumni isn't comparable. WSU probably has the edge in business programs but these are the types who expect a return on their investment.

[ShockBand]

I agree with the your general sentiment that we'd be light years ahead of where we are now if Turgeon or Marshall were the coach.

That said, Creighton has always been known as the snobby fan base that has $$. They have a medical, law, and dentistry school. In comparison, WSU offers nursing and dental hygiene. The purchasing power of WSU alumni isn't comparable. WSU probably has the edge in business programs but these are the types who expect a return on their investment.

Using the current endowment levels as a comparison, WSU stands at around $320 million. Creighton is at $745 million. A longer history of deep pockets, and a longer history of graduates in fields that generate high incomes. Yes, we have graduates who have achieved great wealth, but we all know we're a more "blue collar" type of university. Creighton has as part of a slogan on their webpage "Students Soar". Ours is "Student Centered. Innovation Driven." A fancier way of saying "We Get $h1t Done".

[WuShock Reaper]

[Kung Wu]

Sweat Hoes?

[C0|dB|00ded]

Sweat Hoes?

Good nickname for the Shocker fanbase in the NIL era...

[ShockerExpress]

WSU athletics will go as far as big money and normal fans will power them to go.

NIL for a basketball-only school of a town of our size should be somewhat of an advantage for us. (I actually think to a degree it has been in comparison to conference members)

If you’re expectations are to recruit and preform as well as the best non-P5 programs in the county (which I believe most on here have those expectations) it’s gonna be hard to do with the support we’ve gotten since 3G.

We have to match fan support from those types of schools. We are not. In fact you can put all those so called “peers” almost light years ahead of us in several categories.

Blame whoever. And there is plenty of blame to go around, including a heaping steaming pile on Marshall himself, but those are facts.

People here seem to care far less than I thought they did about Shocker basketball.