(UTSA 8-14, 2-7), at (WSU 9-13, 1-8) GAME THREAD

[TrackSuitAndTie]

No, you can't. His first possession was a wild, uncontrolled spin move in the lane into two defenders that resulted in a turnover. He was late defensively on multiple switches. Maybe the kid turns into something down the road, but trying to gather this kind of information about him during mop-up minutes is silly. If he was capable of helping the team more than other people on the court, he would be getting minutes now. Do we think the walk-on is a defensive god because he got one block in the last minute of a 20 point game? If Germany hits the wide open three are we yelling for more Germany minutes because he made a shot? I get people on this board are pining for this kid to play, but come on.

Yeah, he's certainly a freshman, but I think he acquitted himself well in the 24 minutes he played against Saint Louis earlier in the year and it was nice to see him on the court again. I'm not sure if you recall, but he had 4 steals in those 24 minutes to go along with 7 points, 5 rebounds, and an assist. My comment wasn't excusive to the three minutes he played yesterday. It certainly remains to be seen whether he can develop further next season or if he will remain glued to the bench.

I'm not sure why you would compare Joy's potential to a walk-on or 5th year senior.

[SubGod22]

No, you can't. His first possession was a wild, uncontrolled spin move in the lane into two defenders that resulted in a turnover. He was late defensively on multiple switches. Maybe the kid turns into something down the road, but trying to gather this kind of information about him during mop-up minutes is silly. If he was capable of helping the team more than other people on the court, he would be getting minutes now. Do we think the walk-on is a defensive god because he got one block in the last minute of a 20 point game? If Germany hits the wide open three are we yelling for more Germany minutes because he made a shot? I get people on this board are pining for this kid to play, but come on.

You mean in his first game action in two months he made a mistake? That's not a surprise, especially for a FR. His last game action prior to last night was on 12/9 and it was only 1 minute. He hasn't really played since November. In his last game with any actual minutes he had 7 points, 4 steals and 5 rebounds in 24 minutes.

[shocker43]

Yeah, he's certainly a freshman, but I think he acquitted himself well in the 24 minutes he played against Saint Louis earlier in the year and it was nice to see him on the court again. I'm not sure if you recall, but he had 4 steals in those 24 minutes to go along with 7 points, 5 rebounds, and an assist. My comment wasn't excusive to the three minutes he played yesterday. It certainly remains to be seen whether he can develop further next season or if he will remain glued to the bench.

I'm not sure why you would compare Joy's potential to a walk-on or 5th year senior.

I'm comparing them because we've seen similar minutes between all of them. Even in his 24 minutes in the game you think makes your case (Germany also got run in this game, not during mop-up minutes), he was in the lineup out of necessity because HB was injured, and BC wasn't eligible. That same game, Isaac Abidde was our starting 4. He shot 1-4 from three and 2-6 overall against a team ranked 218 on KP.

Y'all act like the only way a player can develop is playing during games. If he can't develop in practice, pre-season, etc, like everyone else, then he has no business being on the court during games. If he was a game-changer, or even a solid contributor, he would be getting minutes. That doesn't mean that we wont eventually become that, but saying he "immediately" proves he should be playing is a joke.

[shocker43]

You mean in his first game action in two months he made a mistake? That's not a surprise, especially for a FR. His last game action prior to last night was on 12/9 and it was only 1 minute. He hasn't really played since November. In his last game with any actual minutes he had 7 points, 4 steals and 5 rebounds in 24 minutes.

Not shocked that he made a mistake. I'm shocked that, with those mistakes in mind, against the end of the bench on UTSA, someone could come to the conclusion that he "immediately" shows he should be playing more.

[Shockm]

We have nobody with any kind of respectable A/TO ratio. Only three players who actually play are in the positive. Rogers (45/34), Beverly (77/57), and Ridgnal (16/11)

All of our guards have more TO's than steals. We don't steal the ball, but we do turn it over well. I have been a little surprised that Rogers doesn't have better handles than he does. He often doesn't catch the ball cleanly, and doesn't dribble well when pressured. Beverly has the best handles.

[Aargh]

How much you want to bet KP isn’t the conference player of the year next season?

Fanduel has that at 500:1

[1972Shocker]

Its really hard to glean anything off this game with how bad UTSA is. That said hopefully the team can at least gain some confidence. That might all come crashing down Sunday, but hopefully not. FAU is a Jekyl and Hyde team. So hopefully we get our good game and their bad game.

UTSA is not without some athletes. The Shocks scoring 84 points on UTSA is not especially noteworthy considering UTSA opponents have averaged 83.6 ppg this year. However, holding a team that was averaging 80.2 ppg coming into last night's game to 64 points was notable.

The question is how much of the UTSA offensive underperformance was due to the Shockers' play. I think some of that was. The Shocks outrebounding UTSA 47-39, blocking 6 shots to only 1 for UTSA and only turning the ball over 8 times vs 13 for UTSA were positives. Now how much credit the Shockers deserve for UTSA shooting 5-22 on three pointers is hard to say. Perhaps they deserve a little credit for that, although maybe that was mostly due to a poor shooting night from UTSA. The Shocks defense certainly had nothing to do with a 71% UTSA free throw shooting team only making 13-25 (52%) from the line.

Even if UTSA hits their season average on three pointers and free throws the Shocks probably win but perhaps by only 5 points or less. The winning margin in this game was largely impacted by a poor shooting performance by UTSA.

The 2nd half (excluding the mop up minutes) was probably more illustrative of the relative strength of these 2 teams than was the 1st half. At the time HCPM starting subbing in the deep bench with about 3:30 to play the Shocks were up 37-31 in the second half with the reserves giving that 6 point advantage back in the final minutes.

I think the Shocks are making some progress. We will just have to wait and see what that will mean over the remainder of the season. The schedule does seem to ease up a bit over the remaining 8 games. Anything less than a 4-4 finish while playing hard and, as HCPM likes to say, mature basketball consistently then it would be hard to make a case that we have progressed.

[TrackSuitAndTie]

I'm comparing them because we've seen similar minutes between all of them. Even in his 24 minutes in the game you think makes your case (Germany also got run in this game, not during mop-up minutes), he was in the lineup out of necessity because HB was injured, and BC wasn't eligible. That same game, Isaac Abidde was our starting 4. He shot 1-4 from three and 2-6 overall against a team ranked 218 on KP.

Y'all act like the only way a player can develop is playing during games. If he can't develop in practice, pre-season, etc, like everyone else, then he has no business being on the court during games. If he was a game-changer, or even a solid contributor, he would be getting minutes. That doesn't mean that we wont eventually become that, but saying he "immediately" proves he should be playing is a joke.

It's clear we have differing opinions on Joy's potential moving forward which is fine. I think he has shown flashes that would merit a greater role next season, but of course I don't know what goes on behind closed doors. I am enticed by the flashes I see from Joy, but he could very well end up like Isaac Abidde and never build a serious role on the team.

I do think playing in games is a significant contributor to a player's development, even if they can and should be developing in practice, preseason, etc. as you said, so I really hope he gets a shot next season.

[Stickboy46]

Not shocked that he made a mistake. I'm shocked that, with those mistakes in mind, against the end of the bench on UTSA, someone could come to the conclusion that he "immediately" shows he should be playing more.

I think it should be factored that this year is a lost year at this point. So while yes, he can develop in practice or watching or whatever, there is something different about real live game time. Since he's already burnt the eligibility this year I'd rather try him out on the court his year to see if his mistakes are because he's not good, or because he has the jitters from never playing and finally getting in the game. There is nothing to lose at this point for this year. The people ahead of him have proven they are likely not the answer, or have very minimal eligibility left. So why not let the kid that MIGHT stay here longer than another year have some time.

[Stickboy46]

UTSA is not without some athletes. The Shocks scoring 84 points on UTSA is not especially noteworthy considering UTSA opponents have averaged 83.6 ppg his year. However, holding a team that was averaging 80.2 ppg coming into last night's game to 64 points was notable.

The question is how much of the UTSA offensive underperformance was due to the Shockers' play. I think some of that was. The Shocks outrebounding UTSA 47-39, blocking 6 shots to only 1 for UTSA and only turning the ball over 8 times vs 13 for UTSA were positives. Now how much credit the Shockers deserve for UTSA shooting 5-22 on three pointers is hard to say. Perhaps they deserve a little credit for that, although maybe that was mostly due to a poor shooting night from UTSA. The Shocks defense certainly had nothing to do with a 71% UTSA free throw shooting team only making 13-25 (52%) from the line.

Even if UTSA hits their season average on three pointers and free throws the Shocks probably win but perhaps by only 5 points or less. The winning margin in this game was largely impacted by a poor shooting performance by UTSA.

The 2nd half (excluding the mop up minutes) was probably more illustrative of the relative strength of these 2 teams than was the 1st half. At the time HCPM starting subbing in the deep bench with about 3:30 to play the Shocks were up 37-31 in the second half with the reserves give that 6 point advantage back in the final minutes.

I think the Shocks are making some progress. We will just have to wait and see what that will mean over the remainder of the season. The schedule does seem to ease up a bit over the remaining 8 games. Anything less than a 4-4 finish while playing hard and, as HCPM likes to say, mature basketball consistently then it would be hard to make a case that we have progressed.

Agree with everything you said. They played better, that's for sure. My point was basically what you were lining out. Its hard to know what to take from it because you really don't know how much of it was due to our defense or how much was just due to UTSA being off. They are a quick shooting team that shoots lots of 3s. So if they are off on 3s they are awful.

[WstateU]

[Woodrow]

I think it should be factored that this year is a lost year at this point. So while yes, he can develop in practice or watching or whatever, there is something different about real live game time. Since he's already burnt the eligibility this year I'd rather try him out on the court his year to see if his mistakes are because he's not good, or because he has the jitters from never playing and finally getting in the game. There is nothing to lose at this point for this year. The people ahead of him have proven they are likely not the answer, or have very minimal eligibility left. So why not let the kid that MIGHT stay here longer than another year have some time.

What would it say about our team if we didn't put the best possible players on the floor every game. We have to try and win every remaining game. It's not like the end of a game where we are way ahead or way behind and that game is already won or lost at that point. In my opinion you never want to give up on games before you play them. I hope our coaching staff trys to win every remaining game. They have the best viewpoint on which players are going to give us the best shot to do it.

[SubGod22]

What would it say about our team if we didn't put the best possible players on the floor every game. We have to try and win every remaining game. It's not like the end of a game where we are way ahead or way behind and that game is already won or lost at that point. In my opinion you never want to give up on games before you play them. I hope our coaching staff trys to win every remaining game. They have the best viewpoint on which players are going to give us the best shot to do it.

At some point, you have to at least consider the future.

Really, Joy should have been playing at least 5-10 minutes each game for the past 2 months. I find it nearly impossible to believe that we would be worse off now if that were happening. Joy would be better off for it. The team would be better off for it now and definitely in the future. It's not like we've been dominating guard play.

[Woodrow]

At some point, you have to at least consider the future.

Really, Joy should have been playing at least 5-10 minutes each game for the past 2 months. I find it nearly impossible to believe that we would be worse off now if that were happening. Joy would be better off for it. The team would be better off for it now and definitely in the future. It's not like we've been dominating guard play.

You may be right that Joy is better than some of the other guards who play now. I think HCPM disagrees with you or he'd be playing a lot more. I just don't want to accept losing to develop future players. Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.

[shock]

Shock is the one comparing KP to PM. I am just contributing some facts.

I did not compare KP to PM. I compared what is said about KP to what was said about PM.

Basically, I said we are a bunch of mouth breathers that rarely know anything about what a player will look like next year.