WICHITA STATE (8-3) vs. KANSAS STATE (8-3) Game Thread

[Stickboy46]

The sad thing is that goes for the vast majority of other players we’ve had too. So many times we’ve had “great shooters” that I stop believing it now.

Question - does Tang and Baylor teams also have a similar offense system? It seemed like it when I watched the game last night so didn’t know.

Tang has an extra year under his belt .. but while they did drive a lot, I also noticed them running sets that were specifically designed to try to get the RIGHT shooter open. We rarely if ever see that.

[Woodrow]

I like the energy that Cortes brought. Hopefully he settles down and limits turnovers.
You can't play Pohto at the 5 on defense. As soon as Ballard goes out they start driving inside and Pohto doesn't have the ability to deter them.
Bell was only in for 20 minutes last night due to foul problems. We struggled to score when he was out.
We really need another 3 point guy besides Rogers, but please don't let Pohto shoot any more 3's this year.
RD3 is a really good rebounder and defender. He needs more minutes and Ike needs less.

[Topshock]

Tang has an extra year under his belt .. but while they did drive a lot, I also noticed them running sets that were specifically designed to try to get the RIGHT shooter open. We rarely if ever see that.

That is easier when you have 5 players at 30% or better from 3 like KSU as opposed to 3, one being Abidde, like we do.

[shockrah]

Agreed. The guy is a career 23% 3 point shooter. Quit shooting damn 3 pointers. Completely head scratching he is allowed to keep shooting those when they are essentially turnovers.

He's gotta be due for one soon, right? LOL

[ShockerFever]

Agreed. The guy is a career is a 3 point shooter. Quit shooting damn 3 pointers. Completely head scratching he is allowed to keep shooting those when they are essentially turnovers.

I forgot the poster who was always running around chasing my nuts (ShockerExpress maybe) whenever I said bad, low percentage shots done over and over again were essentially turnovers. But thats exactly what they are.

[Stickboy46]

That is easier when you have 5 players at 30% or better from 3 like KSU as opposed to 3, one being Abidde, like we do.

Maybe, but also might be easier to have more people hitting from 3 if the plays are designed to get them good shots.

It's a little of both

[asiseeit]

No question, this team really needs another shooter or two besides Rodgers. Just one game, his first, but it was NOT a good one for BC. KP is our ONLY down low threat with back to the basket. Need him THERE more. Many will argue with me but he is the more solid OVERALL defender than QB and a better rebounder. QB obviously the better shot blocker but he gets lost a lot and is out of position too often. Many of you are down on KP. It's not his fault he is being played in the corner outside the arc. He is doing what the coaches ask of him and what they are asking does NOT fit his strengths OR what the team needs. Despite that he is still our leading rebounder, 3rd on the team in points scored and highest FG% outside of QB who is mainly a dunker. Move him inside and you would see his numbers ( FG%, rebounds, points scored etc ) improve. Can't play him and QB together because it clogs up the paint too much and you can't expect KP to excel standing in the corner. If this team doesn't learn to move without the ball, see the court, and share things won't get better. ALSO, big also, bench players need to understand their roles.....rebounding and defense not jacking up 3's.

[Topshock]

No question, this team really needs another shooter or two besides Rodgers. Just one game, his first, but it was NOT a good one for BC. KP is our ONLY down low threat with back to the basket. Need him THERE more. Many will argue with me but he is the more solid OVERALL defender than QB and a better rebounder. QB obviously the better shot blocker but he gets lost a lot and is out of position too often. Many of you are down on KP. It's not his fault he is being played in the corner outside the arc. He is doing what the coaches ask of him and what they are asking does NOT fit his strengths OR what the team needs. Despite that he is still our leading rebounder, 3rd on the team in points scored and highest FG% outside of QB who is mainly a dunker. Move him inside and you would see his numbers ( FG%, rebounds, points scored etc ) improve. Can't play him and QB together because it clogs up the paint too much and you can't expect KP to excel standing in the corner. If this team doesn't learn to move without the ball, see the court, and share things won't get better. ALSO, big also, bench players need to understand their roles.....rebounding and defense not jacking up 3's.

Don't disagree with a lot of this. The problem with playing KP down low is defense. He just can't stop anyone in the paint from scoring at will.

[shocks02]

Most of us could benefit from a deep breath. Nothing that happened last night changes the long-term outlook of the program. We need another shooter or two. Until then the offense likely will struggle. The defense has been okay, but we're not good at applying pressure. Both of those problems are personnel issues.

[shock]

The only real problem I see right now that I believe be a consistent problem going forward until the system is changed or until the players figure it out is how the players react after a shot. Two guards immediately peel back to stop a fast break leaving a guard and two big men for the rebound.
Under Marshall, one guard hung back to stop the break and he relied on that guard to slow the break and allow the others on defense to catch up and poke the ball loose from behind or block it at the backboard. The other four would work the rebound. Two or three would box out, one or two would go for the ball.
Under Mills, they seem to be running a probability rebounding scheme based on the offensive spacing. Two guards fall back to stop the break. The wings then run a crossing motion under the basket, seemingly counting on the ball coming down to one of the three and the two stopping the break if not. The motion make it hard to box WSU out, but it also makes it harder to compete against length and athleticism.
Stickboy might be able to find the metrics on points after a miss over the last 10 years. I am curious if the probability is working in Mills favor. Obviously Mills thinks so. This would be a good coach's show discussion topic too.

So what happened last night? Cortes was gassed at the end of the first. He and Ronnie are not quite in "game shape" yet. This system relies on motion to work- we saw that with KSU last night, who happens to run pretty much the same principals as WSU. I guess that happens when the coaches have been quite literally rubbing shoulders for 25ish years. Mills ran an inbounds play to get colby a high percentage shot, Tang ran the same play 3 times after that- that I saw. IMO, the difference was playing 5 on 8 in the first. With even officiating, WSU goes into the second up 5-10 and then the game at the end comes down to a last possession shot. WSU would pull within 4, and then KSU would drive and pick up the foul. Before this game, WSU was one of the top programs in the country at not fouling, so its not a system or player problem. HB summed it up nicely when he fouled out "They (refs) aren't letting us do anything."

Moving forward, we will still be fine. Is the team good? Debatable, although I think we handled KSU better than anyone thought we would at the beginning of the season. Despite all the issues they have had thus far, I believe they will end up a top 5 B12 program. Is our program improving? every game. I see a lot of gripes from accounts started in 13, 14, 15. Take a chill pill. If we wanted to roll the dice every year, we could have kept IB. PM is building a program. He has good assistants. ACQA has improved QB, and KP is still learning the system but has the fundamentals and footwork. KP does things out there every game that are jaw droppingly good. Personally, I think the system is not giving him quality looks yet and he is still getting the ball with 3 people around him. That will begin to change now that we have BC.

About BC: the good is that he is high energy, and is constantly looking to pass. The bad is he has a Gal Mekel type game. When he slows down and players get used to the velocity he puts on the ball, the turnovers will get better. There is potential but he is RAW. My prediction is he is HATED by SN this year, 2nd team AAC next year.

RELAX. Enjoy the ride. Visit the doctor and get your blood pressure checked.

[pinstripers]

Yesterday morning it was 130/68...........didn't check it last night

[WuShock16]

I'm expecting a 20 point ass beating next week.

Just 20? Im fearing worse.

[SubGod22]

Just 20? Im fearing worse.

If it's only 20, we either play out our asses, Self calls off the dogs, or KU plays like ****.

[WuShock16]

If it's only 20, we either play out our asses, Self calls off the dogs, or KU plays like ****.

I am hoping for a holiday hangover combined with the game not being in AFH. Maybe a bit lesser energy in the building.

[pinstripers]

I fear Self will try to beat us by 50