WICHITA STATE (4-0) vs. LIBERTY (3-0) Game Thread

[Kung Wu]

Let's just say then, that the Liberty coach made brilliant halftime adjustments

How many half time adjustments do you think even the best coach in the whole world can make after coaching 7 or 8 new kids 5 games into a season, compared with a coach that has 4 year players playing for him? You can only adjust within what you have been able to work on in the limited time you have had them.

You do know this wonderful coach, Ritchie, who" outcoached" HCPM got his ASS handed to him his first season coaching Liberty, right?

So did Marshall.

So did Turgeon.

Why, because they were getting outcoached? No ... because they were implementing an entire new system with kids they have never coached, and it takes a couple years people.

[SubGod22]

I don't think I've seen it mentioned that the wheels fell off in the second half when Bell went to the bench with foul trouble. Liberty went on something like a 10-0 run to turn a small lead into a big lead. The Shox had one run left, but then things really fell apart late in the game, which may have been a factor of fatigue.

One thing that always remains true: Haters gonna hate.

He committed his 3rd and final foul with about 16:45 left in the 2nd half. According to play by play he was out for roughly three and a half minutes and they went on a whopping 6-2 run during that time. One of those six points was a FT due to his foul.

We cut the lead to two at 10:40 and kept it there until the hit a three at 9:18. At the under 8 timeout (6:58) we were down 10. From 9:18 to 5:58 we didn't score at all and Bell was in during that stretch and most of the rest of the game where the score got worse. At the under 4 timeout (3:55) we were down 17.

So at the time he committed that 3rd foul, we were down 6. When he showed back up in the play by play three and a half minutes later, we were down 10.

So your point above simply lacks and factual substance.

But one thing remains true, sunshine pumpers gonna pump and pump hard.

[WstateU]

Losing to Liberty had nothing to do with coaching other than not being able to get lucky and land an experienced floor general PG that could help navigate running into a very experienced top-64 program. We didn't get out-coached, we got out-experienced. There are only so many adjustments a new coach can make with a new set of players with a new system, this early in your first season. That's got nothing to do with Xs and Os.

Sometimes it's all about the Jimmies and the Joes...

[SubGod22]

You also have to have execution of the coaching instructions. Sometimes that falls apart. If you don't have a deep bench it may be difficult to sit players for a bit to adjust their mentality. Also, when things go south, it isn't surprising to see players go into "hero ball" because the gut level instinct is to try and make something happen, even if that goes against the game plan. Learning to fight that instinct takes time.

But the problem is that absolutely nothing changed in approach. Zip. That comes from the bench, or at least it should. That was one of the things that was so frustrating and embarrassing about the Liberty game. I didn't expect to win that game going into it. But when it started to slip away there was no effort to try anything different. No effort to modify anything. We kept giving good looks to good shooters and we kept forcing more than our share of bad shots by doing the same thing over and over again.

Yes, Liberty shot and hit a lot of threes. We gave them every opportunity to do so. Perhaps they shot less against Vermont yesterday because Vermont gave them fewer good looks.

I also just went back thru the play by play and they didn't even score 10 points after Bell committed his 3rd foul to when he popped back up in the PBP again. At that point, they had gone on a 6-2 run with one of those 6 being the FT made due to Bell's foul. That was a three and a half minute stretch. The game got away after the under 8 timeout which had nothing to do with anyone having foul trouble.

[Stickboy46]

I remember an NCAA tourney game against Marshall where WSU had a lot of "advantages" and Marshall was hotter than stink from 3. It can be very hard to beat a team that can consistently hit 3-pointers.

I don't think I've seen it mentioned that the wheels fell off in the second half when Bell went to the bench with foul trouble. Liberty went on something like a 10-0 run to turn a small lead into a big lead. The Shox had one run left, but then things really fell apart late in the game, which may have been a factor of fatigue.

One thing that always remains true: Haters gonna hate.

And sunshine pumpers will make excuses. Those unable to have a nuanced POV and instead can only see things one way.

Thankfully HCPM made up for being outcoached vs Liberty by drawing up a great game plan for St. Louis

[Aargh]

I remember an NCAA tourney game against Marshall where WSU had a lot of "advantages" and Marshall (the school, not the coach) was hotter than stink from 3. (Although Marshall, the coach, was probably hotter than stink from the sidelines.) It can be very hard to beat a team that can consistently hit 3-pointers.

I don't think I've seen it mentioned that the wheels fell off in the second half when Bell went to the bench with foul trouble. Liberty went on something like a 10-0 run to turn a small lead into a big lead. The Shox had one run left, but then things really fell apart late in the game, which may have been a factor of fatigue.

One thing that always remains true: Haters gonna hate.

[ShockBand]

THIS !!!! Thank you!!! 8 kids( yes, some taller, some more athletic( whatever THAT implies) )but none who really have played together, likely to be vulnerable to a cohesive group that has been together.
I hate the phrase “ outcoached”… it indicates so much negativity that may not be quantifiable , but totally implies ineptitude or laziness

You also have to have execution of the coaching instructions. Sometimes that falls apart. If you don't have a deep bench it may be difficult to sit players for a bit to adjust their mentality. Also, when things go south, it isn't surprising to see players go into "hero ball" because the gut level instinct is to try and make something happen, even if that goes against the game plan. Learning to fight that instinct takes time.

[molly jabali]

Losing to Liberty had nothing to do with coaching other than not being able to get lucky and land an experienced floor general PG that could help navigate running into a very experienced top-64 program. We didn't get out-coached, we got out-experienced. There are only so many adjustments a new coach can make with a new set of players with a new system, this early in your first season. That's got nothing to do with Xs and Os.

THIS !!!! Thank you!!! 8 kids( yes, some taller, some more athletic( whatever THAT implies) )but none who really have played together, likely to be vulnerable to a cohesive group that has been together.
I hate the phrase “ outcoached”… it indicates so much negativity that may not be quantifiable , but totally implies ineptitude or laziness

[Stickboy46]

Let's just say then, that the Liberty coach made brilliant halftime adjustments

And we didn't ... which i guess has nothing to do with coaching?

[pinstripers]

Let's just say then, that the Liberty coach made brilliant halftime adjustments

[WstateU]

Happens to the best of them; even HOFers...

[Shockm]

Agreed, they had a very good gameplan that leveraged their advantage and gave them good shots. I.e. we were outcoached. Their gameplan was better than ours. They also adjusted on defense in the second half by collapsing on the drivers because they knew our gameplan was to try to space out the lane so we could drive. They took that away and we did not make any adjustments and instead just kept driving into multiple players and either got trapped or spun right into their defender stripping the ball.

You simplify things too much. This happens all the time in the NCAA Tournament, where teams who shoot 3's successfully win against superior teams. Why did they not shoot that many 3's against Vermont? They weren't forced to, and likely didn't think they could make them at a 35% rate. That includes a lot of good fortune for the WSU game.

I will add that Rode shot 7/12 3 pointers against WSU, and only 2/5 against Vermont. They weren't forced to shoot from deep nearly as much vs. Vermont.

[Kung Wu]

Losing to Liberty had nothing to do with coaching other than not being able to get lucky and land an experienced floor general PG that could help navigate running into a very experienced top-64 program. We didn't get out-coached, we got out-experienced. There are only so many adjustments a new coach can make with a new set of players with a new system, this early in your first season. That's got nothing to do with Xs and Os.

[Stickboy46]

I already said that Liberty shot 14/40 from 3 against us. They only shot 18 3 pointers against Vermont. They effectively negated out height advantage by shooting and making a very good 3 point percentage, and limiting our offensive rebounding.

Agreed, they had a very good gameplan that leveraged their advantage and gave them good shots. I.e. we were outcoached. Their gameplan was better than ours. They also adjusted on defense in the second half by collapsing on the drivers because they knew our gameplan was to try to space out the lane so we could drive. They took that away and we did not make any adjustments and instead just kept driving into multiple players and either got trapped or spun right into their defender stripping the ball.

[Stickboy46]

I'm not sure that Liberty got better shots (at least not wider open than our shots), but they were hitting their shots (several of them were 25 footers). If Liberty doesn't hit their 3 point shots (14/40 compared to our 2/14 = 36 points), we win, and they lose. They physically, and smartly contested (chested up, and borderline fouling) every shot, and were content with Bell (isolating 1 on 1) getting into the lane, taking contested shots, as long as we didn't get the rebound when he missed. They boxed out really well, and were content with rebounding. The spacing that Mills emphasizes so well, doesn't help as well against a smaller, quick, smart team who plays good defense.

Suffice it to say that Liberty is a larger teams Kryptonite if they hit their 3's. It happens all the time.

They definitely got better shots. They were passing the ball around and consistently hit their shooters in rhythm. Most of our shots were "self created" which are rarely as high of quality of shots as someone receiving a pass ready to shoot.