Wichita State at UCF Game Thread 2-8-22

[Maizerunner08]

Summing up my feelings at the half...

I let the SMU game give me way too much hope. Ugh

[ShockTalk]

Summing up my feelings at the half...

Heck, I started doing that after 5 minutes in the 1st half.

[ventichai]

Was listening to Shane Dennis on 92.3, and he made a really good (yet woefully depressing) point in regards to where this team compares to last year’s team that made the NCAA tournament. The team this year has played just about the same amount of games that last years team played in total last season…

In two possession games, the Shockers last year went 10-3. This year: they’ve gone 5-6 in two possession games. When you look further and compare the stats of this and last years team, they’re virtually the same (Shane discusses these slight differences in further detail). Kenpom had WSU ranked 68th last year. With the loss to UCF last night, and factoring in luck (which Kenpom does) they are now ranked 78th.

Long story short: One can make the argument last years team made the tournament on luck & game cancellations due to covid. This years team just aren’t as lucky, and we are seeing what happens when luck runs dry, statistics take shape, and the inevitable reverting to the mean as a unit occurs.

Do with that what you will…but I still think this offseason and seeing what changes take place in the portal/recruiting will tell us what to expect moving forward next year.

[Topshock]

From referee.com:

Play 1: Two players for team A set a double screen near the endline. A1, using the screen in an effort to lose a defender, intentionally runs around the screen in the out-of-bounds area behind the basket and returns to the playing court on the other side just beyond the three-point arc. After stepping back onto the court A1 is the first to receive a pass, shooting the ball for a successful three-point goal. Ruling 1: According to NFHS rule 9-3-3, a violation occurred and a whistle should be sounded the moment A1 stepped out of bounds. According to NCAA rule 9-3.1, since A1 stepped out of bounds voluntarily, the moment A1 first touched the ball after returning to the court, a violation occurred.

As many may remember, not too long ago, the penalty for leaving the court voluntarily was a very harsh technical foul, but that has since changed to a kinder, more palatable sentence and is only ruled a violation. Once the whistle is sounded, the ball becomes dead and the usual procedure for a violation is followed, resuming play with the ball being awarded to the opponents of the violating team for a throw-in nearest the spot of the violation (NFHS 7-5-2; NCAAM 7-3.2; NCAAW 7-4.1).

[SubGod22]

From referee.com:

Play 1: Two players for team A set a double screen near the endline. A1, using the screen in an effort to lose a defender, intentionally runs around the screen in the out-of-bounds area behind the basket and returns to the playing court on the other side just beyond the three-point arc. After stepping back onto the court A1 is the first to receive a pass, shooting the ball for a successful three-point goal. Ruling 1: According to NFHS rule 9-3-3, a violation occurred and a whistle should be sounded the moment A1 stepped out of bounds. According to NCAA rule 9-3.1, since A1 stepped out of bounds voluntarily, the moment A1 first touched the ball after returning to the court, a violation occurred.

As many may remember, not too long ago, the penalty for leaving the court voluntarily was a very harsh technical foul, but that has since changed to a kinder, more palatable sentence and is only ruled a violation. Once the whistle is sounded, the ball becomes dead and the usual procedure for a violation is followed, resuming play with the ball being awarded to the opponents of the violating team for a throw-in nearest the spot of the violation (NFHS 7-5-2; NCAAM 7-3.2; NCAAW 7-4.1).

The question here is did he do it intentionally? He didn't run out of bounds and then not reenter for 20 feet like the Play described. He incidentally stepped on the boundary line. This is where rules are fun because they're not as black and white as some would think or like.

And the rule of giving it a T was not received well by officials. Way too harsh a punishment. I only ever saw it called once, and funny enough, it was after they removed the T as being the punishment. I was helping out and working a middle school game and my partner wouldn't back down until we got to half-time and pulled out the newest rules book. That was still a tough conversation with the coach who was not happy when it happened. It's hard to not throw a partner under the bus when he's so very wrong. Especially when the kid didn't have any intention on getting any sort of advantage when it happened. He appeared to be more lost on what he was doing than anything else.

[Shockm]

The question here is did he do it intentionally? He didn't run out of bounds and then not reenter for 20 feet like the Play described. He incidentally stepped on the boundary line. This is where rules are fun because they're not as black and white as some would think or like.

I was willing to agree with you yesterday, but today I may go back into the other camp. Those two underlined statements above need clarification. You're right that it wasn't 20 feet, but he didn't just incidentally step on the out of bounds line. It was a significant amount of space, probably 10' and 3 steps out of bounds. That amount of space makes it very difficult for a defender to keep pace. I doubt that the intention of the rule was to give the offensive player that much leeway.

[Kung Wu]

From referee.com:

Play 1: Two players for team A set a double screen near the endline. A1, using the screen in an effort to lose a defender, intentionally runs around the screen in the out-of-bounds area behind the basket and returns to the playing court on the other side just beyond the three-point arc. After stepping back onto the court A1 is the first to receive a pass, shooting the ball for a successful three-point goal. Ruling 1: According to NFHS rule 9-3-3, a violation occurred and a whistle should be sounded the moment A1 stepped out of bounds. According to NCAA rule 9-3.1, since A1 stepped out of bounds voluntarily, the moment A1 first touched the ball after returning to the court, a violation occurred.

As many may remember, not too long ago, the penalty for leaving the court voluntarily was a very harsh technical foul, but that has since changed to a kinder, more palatable sentence and is only ruled a violation. Once the whistle is sounded, the ball becomes dead and the usual procedure for a violation is followed, resuming play with the ball being awarded to the opponents of the violating team for a throw-in nearest the spot of the violation (NFHS 7-5-2; NCAAM 7-3.2; NCAAW 7-4.1).

That exact same article defends SubGod22's statements:

OK, so now we know how to handle plays when a player runs out of bounds of his or her own volition, but what if said player does not purposely go out? What if the player is bumped out, or better yet, what if the player is running so hard to save a ball from going out of bounds that his or her momentum carries the player off the court? And what if after coming back in and establishing inbound status, that player is the first to touch the ball again? When we reference the rulebooks at all levels, there is no direct wording prohibiting an accidental or unintentional exit of the playing court, therefore suggesting any action causing a player to “go out” involuntarily would be legal.

Many officials do not like to go on “assumptions” and find it hard to accept a one-size-fits-all ruling on plays that do not have explicit language telling them such. Luckily, those officials do have that luxury in this “unwritten” rule. The casebook in each of the three respective rules codes has a scenario that explains this exact type of play.

And IMHO, that's why we have rule 9.4-2a for this exact situation. It removes the ambiguity that SubGod22 and the article above describes. A player other than the thrower-in simply cannot go out of bounds for any reason once the throw-in begins, intentional or otherwise.

[Topshock]

These seem to be the only rules that apply to this case from the 2021-22 NCAA Rules book:


Rule 9 / Violations and Penalties 83 4.

Section 3. Player Out of Bounds

Art. 1. A player who steps out of bounds under the player's own volition and then becomes the first player to touch the ball after returning to the playing court has committed a violation.

a. A violation has not been committed when a player, who steps out of bounds as permitted by Rule 7-4.6.b, does not receive the pass along the end line from a teammate and is the first to touch the ball after returning to the playing court


Rule 7 Section 4. Out of Bounds, Ball in Play From

Art. 6. After a successful goal or goaltending/basket interference violation as listed in Rule 7-3.1.c:

b. In Rule 7-4.6.a.1-.4, any player of the throw-in team may make a direct throw-in or may pass the ball along the end line to a teammate(s) who is also out of bounds.


It seems clear to me that the exception allowed in Rule 7 does not apply in this case. Only after a made basket.
That means that any other time a player steps out on his own, it is always a violation when he is the first to touch the ball.

[Shockm]

Hopefully Taylor reports on what he learned from the conference or didn’t learn. I can see them ignoring him too.

[RoyalShock]

The question I have is, if a player goes out of bounds due to the location of a screen getting set by his teammate (which I think - but don't recall with 100% certainty - is what happened), is that considered to be of his own volition? If not, there's a clear loophole around the rule.

[pinstripers]

Probably was a violation, probably would have got the call at home

[Stickboy46]

AAC admitted they screwed up.

[Shocker Mama]

Per Taylor Eldridge


From Mike Eades, the AAC coordinator of mens basketball officiating —

UCF attempted a throw-in with 26.4 seconds
remaining in the second half against Wichita
State on Tuesday, February 8 in Orlando.
The officials should have called a violation on
UCF, recognizing Rule 9, Section 3, Article 1
of the NCAA Rules Book, which reads as
follows:
"A player who steps out of bounds under the
player's own volition and then becomes the
first player to touch the ball after returning to
the playing court has committed a violation.

[Maizerunner08]

AAC admitted they screwed up.

It doesn't do us any good now...but good on them for admitting they messed up.

[Stickboy46]

It doesn't do us any good now...but good on them for admitting they messed up.

Yup its still a loss. But at least settles the debate.