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  • #91
    seen the term "mass exodus" used by a couple of sportswriters

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Aargh View Post
      Actually this is a one-year anomaly, and I've been among the earliest to be critical of Marshall when I felt some criticism was deserved.

      Teddy Allen - beat up his girlfriend, stole her phone and car keys, and failed 3 drug tests

      Ricky Torres, Rod Brown - transferred to lower-level programs. Would not have had PT had they stayed.

      Austin Reaves - Any player dumb enough to date his coach's daughter...there is no way that can end well.

      Daishon Smith - Outstanding player at a MUCH lower level of competition

      Eric Hamilton - After a second coach insisted he play under control, he apparently began to believe it.

      Corey Henderson - Was supposed to be a PG. That didn't work and he wasn't going to get much PT at SG.

      I could go on and on, but there is not a pattern of solid players leaving the program. ES was an unusual situation. I don't know of another player whose parent went on social media and repeatedly posted how their son was being mistreated and the coaching staff was unfair. There can only be one source for that information, and I'm certain the source of that information spread the same cancer to others on the team.

      I thought ES would leave last year. I feel that if he had, we would not have the defection we have now.

      When a coach with Marshall's hard-a$$ approach has a player going around stabbing that coach in the back, it's not that difficult to convince other players that that coach is too difficult to play for.

      Comment


      • #93
        Agree, there’s a lot going on behind the scenes that we as fans aren’t privy too. This could be a perfect storm threatening to take down our program. I for one believe our HOFC will right the ship and get players in that want to be Shockers and be able to take a little ass chewing from time to time. I will miss JB though, good riddance too Stevenson, won’t be missed.

        Comment


        • #94
          Originally posted by SB Shock View Post
          actually the biggest concern is not the transfers, that is the symptom of the bigger problem - RECRUITING MISSES. It has become a pandemic for this program.
          All caps and scary words like pandemic, that’s serious.

          Recruiting isn’t an exact science. Seems like it’s more of a numbers game. I’d be interested to see the ratio of hits vs misses over the last 13 years.

          We’ve had several NBA players and a lot of overseas pros. We’ve had guys who left WSU and went on to have nice careers for other schools. And we’ve had a few guys like Chance Moore who...is he even playing anywhere?

          Many of us, myself included, want to see the Shockers compete for championships. In season tourneys, regular season, conference tourney, NCAA tourney.

          Do we really think that’s no longer Marshall’s goal? That he’s satisfied with getting his ass kicked by Sampson twice a year?

          If those things are true then he should retire. I don’t think they are so I’ll side with him over the Shockernet brain trust. If that means going down with the ship, so be it.

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by 1989 View Post

            The negative consequences of how GM has managed our rosters is likely to hit year 3, and I am actually a guy who usually defends coach.

            Whether you want to frame it as a pattern or not, the fact is that we have lost multiple talented key pieces over the last couple of years that have lead to us having one terrible year, one ok year, and a probable 3rd year that is going to be less than special. A 3 year stretch of very little continuity and very few accomplishments is not a one year anomaly. As mentioned earlier, maybe next year will be good. But it’s all about who he brings in.
            Oh and if an NIT semifinals appearance is a “terrible” year then I’d say we’re in a pretty good place.

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by pie n eye View Post

              It’s not a narrative straw man. Someone literally used the words mass exodus. Maybe it wasn’t you but my point still applies.

              Reaves was a key piece, no doubt. As far as I know his reason for leaving unrelated to a disagreement with the coaching staff.

              Burton was a key piece for sure. I’ve said multiple times I wish he was sticking but if he’s not happy I want him to find a better place.

              Stevenson and Sherfield might have been key pieces but I think both had attitude issues and neither were good enough players to make it worth the headache.

              I don’t want to sit here and talk crap on Ricky Torres, Rod Brown, Chance Moore (maybe I do with him), Noah, and Gordon. I’m sure they’re all great kids and will be successful where ever they end up.

              I agree that continuity is necessary and important but it needs to be guys who are bought in and want to be here. I’m not convinced Stevenson and Sherfield were bought in or wanted to be here. Burton, I dunno, but he didn’t want to be here for whatever reason and that’s ok.
              It’s a straw man when you are quoting and arguing with me and I am not the one that made that point. If you want to quote my posts to make a counter argument against me, shouldn’t it be directed at a comment that I made?

              And yes, we agree. It needs to be guys who are bought in and want to be here. That is my entire point. My point is something needs to change so we have guys that want to be here. That means quit recruiting knuckle heads (teddy, Chance, and Erik) and either change his style and philosophy to fit the team that he has or recruits players that will buy in to him without having to change much up. Clearly that didn’t exist with the players that were here..If my argument is essentially that he needs to change something, is your argument that everything is fine and nothing needs to change at all?

              I won’t quote your other post I will just say it here. If you didn’t think last year was a terrible year than you have way too low of a bar for this program. The only way you make it that far in the NIT is by having such a terrible year that you didn’t make it to the big dance.

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by NCAABound View Post

                I am not in on all the recruiting. Do you mean we have tried for higher level and missed out?
                No.

                I'm talking about the 23 players he has brought into the program over the last 4 years, he has discarded 15 of them for either not being talented enough, attitudes or were unwilling to play his style.

                65% fail rate.

                Houston over the same period has hit on 13-17 recruits, or 76% success rate.

                Comment


                • #98
                  I am a first time commenter, WSU grad who lives and dies by basketball team. I have religiously read this site 2 or 3 times a day for well over a year, but first time commenter.
                  I see a problem nobody has raised that I have seen.

                  Marshall's program always had seniors and juniors who got most of the minutes. Freshmen were supposed to learn, not play much and keep their mouths shut. Even FVV did not play much as a freshman and Baker redshirted. There were seniors around like Malcolm Armstead to show the freshmen the Shocker way.

                  When we lost the six seniors, and Shamet and Reeves, we ended up with 8 freshmen. In many cases, they overlapped each other in positions and roles. But the only seniors were McDuffie (a quiet guy) and Samaje, who was a JC player also. This year the only Senior was Jaime, and he was a JC player.

                  We lost continuity, we lost the elders who would teach the young guys the "Shocker way." Therefore, all the young players had to fend for themselves. This is why problems, jeleousy, etc. came into the program. It is much better for the older players to "school" and discipline the younger players than for the coaches to have to do it. Maybe the coaches cannot even do it.

                  Does anybody doubt that if Baker, Tekele or FVV were here, that the Freshmen for the last two years would have had a whole difference outlook?

                  Look at the NE Patriots, they took knuckleheads from other teams like Corey Dillon, guys who were total screwups. I am sure Brady and a couple of other veterans sat down with them and explained the whole reason they were there, and the only reason they were there, was to help the team win another Super Bowl. So, no BS, shut up and do your job. And it worked, these knuckleheads straightened up and helped NE win more Super Bowls.

                  Does Marshall need to grow and react to being in a better conference? Absolutely.

                  But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

                  We are in the AAC BECAUSE of Marshall and that is the only reason.
                  We got out of BB Hell (the MVC) because of Marshall.

                  He is a Top 15 coach, many other bigger schools wanted him over the past five years, but he remained faithful to WSU.
                  Let's show a little faithfulness to him too and assume he can work out of this morass.

                  I hope he brings in a couple of senior transfers, a couple of Juco guys and a couple of freshmen,.
                  He MUST restore the system he had before of some upperclass leaders for his system to work.
                  Hopefully, DD can grow into the kind of team leader we used to have. To do so, you have to talk the talk and walk the walk.
                  Otherwise, the other players won't listen to a teammate either.



                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by SB Shock View Post

                    No.

                    I'm talking about the 23 players he has brought into the program over the last 4 years, he has discarded 15 of them for either not being talented enough, attitudes or were unwilling to play his style.

                    65% fail rate.

                    Houston over the same period has hit on 13-17 recruits, or 76% success rate.
                    Wow thank you. Thats terrible.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by 1989 View Post

                      If my argument is essentially that he needs to change something, is your argument that everything is fine and nothing needs to change at all?

                      The only way you make it that far in the NIT is by having such a terrible year that you didn’t make it to the big dance.
                      My argument is that if a couple of goofballs on Shockernet understand that we need to recruit good basketball players and keep them around until they're seniors then I guarantee you the guy who has hundreds of wins in his career understands that too.

                      Like I said, recruiting isn’t an exact science. It’s only one example but a lot of us were very high on Erik and thought he was going to fit in very well to the culture of the program. Turns out that was wrong. That’s ok. Sometimes it takes a while to realize it.

                      Same thing for kids leaving. They thought they would be happy and fit in here. They were wrong. That’s ok, too.

                      As far as your last statement, I have no idea how to respond to that.
                      Last edited by pie n eye; March 16, 2020, 11:52 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by David Rahm View Post
                        I am a first time commenter, WSU grad who lives and dies by basketball team. I have religiously read this site 2 or 3 times a day for well over a year, but first time commenter.
                        I see a problem nobody has raised that I have seen.

                        Marshall's program always had seniors and juniors who got most of the minutes. Freshmen were supposed to learn, not play much and keep their mouths shut. Even FVV did not play much as a freshman and Baker redshirted. There were seniors around like Malcolm Armstead to show the freshmen the Shocker way.

                        When we lost the six seniors, and Shamet and Reeves, we ended up with 8 freshmen. In many cases, they overlapped each other in positions and roles. But the only seniors were McDuffie (a quiet guy) and Samaje, who was a JC player also. This year the only Senior was Jaime, and he was a JC player.

                        We lost continuity, we lost the elders who would teach the young guys the "Shocker way." Therefore, all the young players had to fend for themselves. This is why problems, jeleousy, etc. came into the program. It is much better for the older players to "school" and discipline the younger players than for the coaches to have to do it. Maybe the coaches cannot even do it.

                        Does anybody doubt that if Baker, Tekele or FVV were here, that the Freshmen for the last two years would have had a whole difference outlook?

                        Look at the NE Patriots, they took knuckleheads from other teams like Corey Dillon, guys who were total screwups. I am sure Brady and a couple of other veterans sat down with them and explained the whole reason they were there, and the only reason they were there, was to help the team win another Super Bowl. So, no BS, shut up and do your job. And it worked, these knuckleheads straightened up and helped NE win more Super Bowls.

                        Does Marshall need to grow and react to being in a better conference? Absolutely.

                        But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

                        We are in the AAC BECAUSE of Marshall and that is the only reason.
                        We got out of BB Hell (the MVC) because of Marshall.

                        He is a Top 15 coach, many other bigger schools wanted him over the past five years, but he remained faithful to WSU.
                        Let's show a little faithfulness to him too and assume he can work out of this morass.

                        I hope he brings in a couple of senior transfers, a couple of Juco guys and a couple of freshmen,.
                        He MUST restore the system he had before of some upperclass leaders for his system to work.
                        Hopefully, DD can grow into the kind of team leader we used to have. To do so, you have to talk the talk and walk the walk.
                        Otherwise, the other players won't listen to a teammate either.


                        That’s one hell of a first post! Great job!
                        I just want to stand on land...

                        @rjl:
                        If I had a gun with two bullets and was in a room with Hitler, Bin Laden, and a Creighton fan, I think I'd shoot the Creighton fan twice.

                        Comment


                        • I still believe the assistant coaches could be another big part of the problem, it takes a team of coaches, possibly there is a miss or two there. They are involved in everything including recruiting, player development, game management, player consulting and etc.

                          Comment


                          • I don’t really post much on this board and I am a longtime lurker because I normally just read what everyone says...however I’ve been a WSU fan since I went to a game with grandpa in 2005. Aside from currently being a student at Wichita state I’ll tell you guys what I know about GM. One of my friends who is a manager at a another division one school told me this weekend that GM is a ahole to his assistant coaches he said that his coaches don’t like him and that is why the UCF coach left after only one year... I don’t like to make assumptions but it seems like GM is a d**** to his players and coaches....

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Kberre0673 View Post
                              I don’t really post much on this board and I am a longtime lurker because I normally just read what everyone says...however I’ve been a WSU fan since I went to a game with grandpa in 2005. Aside from currently being a student at Wichita state I’ll tell you guys what I know about GM. One of my friends who is a manager at a another division one school told me this weekend that GM is a ahole to his assistant coaches he said that his coaches don’t like him and that is why the UCF coach left after only one year... I don’t like to make assumptions but it seems like GM is a d**** to his players and coaches....
                              While I agree the DJ and KL might have not got along with Gregg, I have a harder time believing TW, LG, and IB don't get along with him.
                              The Assman

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Shocktheheck View Post
                                And as we speak the coaches show has been cancelled.

                                ES, JB, NF, DG, TB, GS all leaving with rumors of more.
                                Was the Gregg Marshall Show cancelled? I thought we would only have a show as long as there were still games being played. And since the rest of the season was cancelled, there would not be any reason to have a show.

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