State of the Basketball Program

[Ashockalypse]

Some are labeling all these guys as “recruiting misses” and counting those numbers when all these guys this year entered the portal voluntarily to anyone’s knowledge.

[1979Shocker]

I think this "mass exodus" that some are suggesting just happens to be the perfect storm. The players that are leaving have different reasons for leaving.

JB played out of position at PG his first two years here and I don't think he wanted to play a third year at PG.

ES had his problems with how Marshall substituted when players made a mistake on the court and his dad didn't help matters any either.

GS had his problems with Marshall. That seemed to be resolved after the talk with Marshall, but evidently it wasn't.

DG most likely wanted more playing time. That probably wasn't going to change next year.

NF wasn't getting much playing time either, but injuries were slowing him down. I think he just needed a change of scenery.

TB, as a walk-on, wasn't getting any playing time and wanted to go to a school where he didn't have to pay his own way and would have more playing time.

[Aargh]

I am a first time commenter, WSU grad who lives and dies by basketball team. I have religiously read this site 2 or 3 times a day for well over a year, but first time commenter.
I see a problem nobody has raised that I have seen.

Marshall's program always had seniors and juniors who got most of the minutes. Freshmen were supposed to learn, not play much and keep their mouths shut. Even FVV did not play much as a freshman and Baker redshirted. There were seniors around like Malcolm Armstead to show the freshmen the Shocker way.

When we lost the six seniors, and Shamet and Reeves, we ended up with 8 freshmen. In many cases, they overlapped each other in positions and roles. But the only seniors were McDuffie (a quiet guy) and Samaje, who was a JC player also. This year the only Senior was Jaime, and he was a JC player.

We lost continuity, we lost the elders who would teach the young guys the "Shocker way." Therefore, all the young players had to fend for themselves. This is why problems, jeleousy, etc. came into the program. It is much better for the older players to "school" and discipline the younger players than for the coaches to have to do it. Maybe the coaches cannot even do it.

Does anybody doubt that if Baker, Tekele or FVV were here, that the Freshmen for the last two years would have had a whole difference outlook?

Look at the NE Patriots, they took knuckleheads from other teams like Corey Dillon, guys who were total screwups. I am sure Brady and a couple of other veterans sat down with them and explained the whole reason they were there, and the only reason they were there, was to help the team win another Super Bowl. So, no BS, shut up and do your job. And it worked, these knuckleheads straightened up and helped NE win more Super Bowls.

Does Marshall need to grow and react to being in a better conference? Absolutely.

But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

We are in the AAC BECAUSE of Marshall and that is the only reason.
We got out of BB Hell (the MVC) because of Marshall.

He is a Top 15 coach, many other bigger schools wanted him over the past five years, but he remained faithful to WSU.
Let's show a little faithfulness to him too and assume he can work out of this morass.

I hope he brings in a couple of senior transfers, a couple of Juco guys and a couple of freshmen,.
He MUST restore the system he had before of some upperclass leaders for his system to work.
Hopefully, DD can grow into the kind of team leader we used to have. To do so, you have to talk the talk and walk the walk.
Otherwise, the other players won't listen to a teammate either.

Already been said "One hell of a first post" - and I concur.

When the Morris/Brown/Kelly, etc. class graduated, Shamet left for the NBA (good decision) and Reaves left for OU (dating the coach's daughter is like trying to transport nitro glycerine over a rocky road - good chance things are going to blow up) that left a huge empty space in upper class leadership

Shamet and Reaves should have been the guys to fill that role, but they had reasons to leave that Marshall probably didn't have in his recruiting plans when he brought them in.

The class imbalance in the Morris/Frankamp class was the first problem. The one thing I've observed is that when there are too many players in a single class, those players don't tend to get along. It happened in the Morris class and in the two large classes since then.

There was success with earlier Sr-heavy classes, but that's not the pattern we're seeing now. It's pretty obvious that having 3 PG's in the Fr and So classes doesn't work for either the team or the players. The 3 worst words in D1 ball are "Freshman point guard"

If you want to throw shade on Marshall, that's the area where it's applicable. Neither Shamet nor Reaves was a PG. Shamet had enough overall skills to look solid playing the position, but then turned out to be a stud SG in the NBA. Too bad he had to play out of position at WSU.

Or when FVV got hurt and we had to move an AA SG to being an all-MVC PG. Marshall's love of combo guards with the thought that he can turn them into high-level D1 PG's is a failure.

[GreatWhiteBuffalo]

So you consider losing Ricky Torres, Rod Brown, and Chance Moore last year a self inflicted wound?

Again, it isn't the fact that they lose guys. It's the amount of guys they are dropping at one time. Those guys were never going to be difference makers. We never really saw Chance, Ricky was a role player at best, and Rod was never going to contribute anything meaningful. Wichita State is never going to recruit at the elite level, so they cannot afford the turnover of a school that can.

Also, how can you miss on that many guys? I know recruiting is more of an art than a science, I get it. Some posted earlier that 3G has something like a 65% miss rate on recruits in the recent past...that also has to drastically improve.

[Aargh]

Again, it isn't the fact that they lose guys. It's the amount of guys they are dropping at one time. Those guys were never going to be difference makers. We never really saw Chance, Ricky was a role player at best, and Rod was never going to contribute anything meaningful. Wichita State is never going to recruit at the elite level, so they cannot afford the turnover of a school that can.

Also, how can you miss on that many guys? I know recruiting is more of an art than a science, I get it. Some posted earlier that 3G has something like a 65% miss rate on recruits in the recent past...that also has to drastically improve.

When there are 13 scholarships and it's impractical to play more than 10 guys, and unlikely to keep more than 8 of that 10 happy with their PT, that's going to leave some who seek a different opportunity and that number is likely to be 2 or 3 every year. We're higher than that this year because there was a player who didn't like to be coached.

[Singeril]

I’m surprised nobody else has said it...”The basketball program is not a state”.

[Slim]

Would Cj Keyser been able to help this team? Seems to found his stride at N.C. Central was 3rd team all conference after missing time due to injury. He seems to be doing well.

[BOBB]

No.

I'm talking about the 23 players he has brought into the program over the last 4 years, he has discarded 15 of them for either not being talented enough, attitudes or were unwilling to play his style.

65% fail rate.

Houston over the same period has hit on 13-17 recruits, or 76% success rate.

This is damning

[revenge_of_shocka_khan]

Some are labeling all these guys as “recruiting misses” and counting those numbers when all these guys this year entered the portal voluntarily to anyone’s knowledge.

I disagree. If a recruit is not a good fit (i.e. aligned with the coach, doesn't display the right behaviiors - soft skill-type stuff), then it is a recruiting miss. It's a recruiting miss because the coach is recruiting players by watching them on film and not paying enough attention to the chemistry they bring to the team OR by not finding a way to make pieces fit together.

[B1ShockFan]

As long as we have to bring in large recruiting classes of 4, 5 or more new players we will have more opportunities of one or more that just do not mesh with the team. Hard to have a TEAM when they are all in the same class and competitors for the same position on the team. New players will work hard to earn a position when they can see the future opportunities to play. We need to balance out the recruiting classes.

[ShockerPrez]

Seems harder to find Freshman that are willing to come in and sit, though. With all the hype on recruiting classes and such, a lot, maybe most think they are free agents coming in the make immediate impacts.

A lot of frosh have unrealistic expectations when they come into a program. Hence, most transfers seem to be freshman.

[revenge_of_shocka_khan]

As long as we have to bring in large recruiting classes of 4, 5 or more new players we will have more opportunities of one or more that just do not mesh with the team. Hard to have a TEAM when they are all in the same class and competitors for the same position on the team. New players will work hard to earn a position when they can see the future opportunities to play. We need to balance out the recruiting classes.

Coach should be aware of that and recruit accordingly, not just to the 'best athlete'. Probably would have been a good idea to have grabbed a senior transfer or Juco a couple of years ago when this initially happened.

[pie n eye]

Again, it isn't the fact that they lose guys. It's the amount of guys they are dropping at one time. Those guys were never going to be difference makers. We never really saw Chance, Ricky was a role player at best, and Rod was never going to contribute anything meaningful. Wichita State is never going to recruit at the elite level, so they cannot afford the turnover of a school that can.

Also, how can you miss on that many guys? I know recruiting is more of an art than a science, I get it. Some posted earlier that 3G has something like a 65% miss rate on recruits in the recent past...that also has to drastically improve.

You said two years in a row of self inflicted wounds so I listed the names who transferred last year. Three guys. None were what I consider “self inflicted wounds”. Your assessment above doesn’t seem to support that either.

It was Reaves and Keyser the year before that. Reaves hurt. Was he self inflicted by the coaching staff? That’s not how I understand it.

Per Taylor’s article today we’ve averaged 2.2/year which is only slightly above the national average of around two.

We have a lot of guys transferring this year. Almost triple our historical average under Marshall. When I consider the context around each of them, I’m only surprised Burton left.

To say we want to recruit and retain good players goes without saying. They also need to be bought in. If they’re not, it’s better for everyone if that leaves even if it means losing multiple guys. Obviously the goal is not to turn over five players each year. Historically, that hasn’t been the case, so I’m not that worried, especially when I consider the circumstances surrounding this crop.

I have no idea how the 65% number was calculated so I’m not going to take it as gospel.

[Ashockalypse]

Some are labeling all these guys as “recruiting misses” and counting those numbers when all these guys this year entered the portal voluntarily to anyone’s knowledge. The weren’t discarded.

[molly jabali]

23-8 with these kids...a 22 point win over the conference leader...I don't think talent level is main issue...