Any SNer's going to the Practice Saturday morning?

[_kai_]

In the Missouri St game last year it was Hatch and Smith who guarded Weems and Ellis and Blair guarding Mallet. Im sure we will doing similar like that this year

Murry typically guards the stars. You don't think he'll be on Weems this year?

[Maggie]

Murry typically guards the stars. You don't think he'll be on Weems this year?

I don't think he will.

[vtshocker]

I think it'll be Murry and Smith and maybe Kyles

[SpanglerFan316]

Wilkins won't be playing Center. And I don't know if ISU expects Threloff to do anything and haven't heard any talk about Jones. All I was saying is that Carmichael is primarily a post player who plays 15 feet and in. I don't think Stutz, Hall or Ehimen will have trouble guarding him. The kid is good, but it's not like he moves like Weems and we'll struggle to find someone to guard him. The Weems type is what is semi worrisome right now and will be until we figure out who can guard that type of player. Carmichael is not that type of player.

I agree that the Weems type of player is the main concern but people like Carmichael with two years experience playing in the MVC are also a concern if Hall has to guard them. As a freshman, JC shot 56.3% and started 18 of 33 games (with Dimna around shooting 61.1%). As a sophomore, he shot 44.9% and started 24 of 30 games.

Carmichael is just one example of a player who is probably too tall for Ben Smith, Toure', etc. to guard and possibly too much for James Anacreon too; Anacreon is 6'7" & 194 lb. while Carmichael is 6'9" & 240 lb. Jake Koch is 6'9" & 245 lb. and shot 35.4% from three. I mentioned a few others previously. This leaves us with Stutz, Orukpe, Hall and White if the Redbirds go with Threloff and Carmichael, UNI goes with Pehl (6'10"", 250 lb.) and Koch (6'9", 245 lb.), CU goes with Echenique (6'9", 270 lb.) and McDermott (6'7", 220 lb.), etc.

Actually I don't feel as bad about CU and MSU because we could potentially put Anacreon, Smith, Murry or Kyles on Weems and deny him the ball and Dougie will probably require a double-team at times to deny him and wear him out. We have the bench to do this. We don't have the depth of tall/long players we might need against other teams or in the NCAA tourney.

As for the opinion "Let Weems get his points, he has no support." - How did we lose to SIU at home? Did Paul Miller single-handedly give us a victory over SIU in 2006?

[The Mad Hatter]

As for the opinion "Let Weems get his points, he has no support." - How did we lose to SIU at home? Did Paul Miller single-handedly give us a victory over SIU in 2006?

As good of a game as Paul had against SIU in 2006, he actually did not win it single-handedly. Paul was WSU's top scorer in the game and Tony Young was SIU's. If you take out those two players, the rest of WSU's team outscored the rest of SIU's team 41-39.

At the end of the day, the problem for SIU was not that Paul Miller scored so much that it was impossible to win, but rather that A) they also lost the battle of the non-leading scorers and B) their own offense only scored 63 points in a double overtime game while shooting less than 30% for the floor.

[WuDrWu]

You're probably thinking of Zach Andrews. Their starting SF was Lawrence Wright, who was pretty athletic (and very long arms), IIRC.

I am without question thinking of Zach Andrews, thank you Royal. Man that was a talented team. Boogie at the 3, 'Cellus at the 2, Franklin and the other kid at point, Andrews at the 4 and POB at center. It reinforces the belief the Valley was darned good that season when that Bradley team could do no better than 4th.

[shock-it-to-me]

Garrett and Carl can play together - as mentioned earlier, Stutz can venture out, while Hall can isolate down low. Perhaps you could say that Stutz is a 4 offensively while Hall is a 5 offensively. I still expect Smith to get a little time at the 4 when Kyles and Murry are in at the same time.

When discussing who the 4's and 5's are, I'm much, much more concerned about the defensive end then the offensive end. Sure, Stutz can venture out on offense, but what's going to happen on the other end of the court when he has to guard a quick, 6'6" guy?

[WuDrWu]

The point of the discussion is the 2011-12 season, not the past. I don't know what Threloff has done in the past. EO has done "nothing" so far at WSU but people have some (slight) expectations for him in 2011-12.

I object to your comment saying I am nitpicking. We are talking about 2011-12. If Threloff or Jones (or Wilkins) plays center and JC plays forward, then Hall will probably have to guard Carmichael. My original point to ask if he could and wufan essentially said Hall would not have to guard JC so the question was moot. I think the question is not moot and my reply was not nitpicking.

If Wilkins defends either Stutz or Hall that person will score 90% of the time. Wilkins is a 2-3. If Threloff and Jackie play at the same time, Stutz and Hall match up against those 2 quite favorably. Hall will be just fine against Carmichael, and every other 4 (or 5 for that matter) in the league except McDermott whom will cause problems for everyone.

[WuDrWu]

When discussing who the 4's and 5's are, I'm much, much more concerned about the defensive end then the offensive end. Sure, Stutz can venture out on offense, but what's going to happen on the other end of the court when he has to guard a quick, 6'6" guy?

I understand your point, but if the tallest kid the other team can put on the floor is 6'6" then our 4-5s are going to score 90% of the time, or get fouled every time down the court. That Garrett, for instance would have to layoff and allow a smaller and quicker guy to shoot wide open shots would be mildly problematic in the short run for WSU and certain defeat for any length of time for the other team, unless the other team has top BCS talent and no size.

[WuDrWu]

I don't think he will.

Kyle Weems is unlikely to enjoy the minutes when Carl Hall is assigned to guard him.

[WuDrWu]

I agree that the Weems type of player is the main concern but people like Carmichael with two years experience playing in the MVC are also a concern if Hall has to guard them. As a freshman, JC shot 56.3% and started 18 of 33 games (with Dimna around shooting 61.1%). As a sophomore, he shot 44.9% and started 24 of 30 games.

Carmichael is just one example of a player who is probably too tall for Ben Smith, Toure', etc. to guard and possibly too much for James Anacreon too; Anacreon is 6'7" & 194 lb. while Carmichael is 6'9" & 240 lb. Jake Koch is 6'9" & 245 lb. and shot 35.4% from three. I mentioned a few others previously. This leaves us with Stutz, Orukpe, Hall and White if the Redbirds go with Threloff and Carmichael, UNI goes with Pehl (6'10"", 250 lb.) and Koch (6'9", 245 lb.), CU goes with Echenique (6'9", 270 lb.) and McDermott (6'7", 220 lb.), etc.

Actually I don't feel as bad about CU and MSU because we could potentially put Anacreon, Smith, Murry or Kyles on Weems and deny him the ball and Dougie will probably require a double-team at times to deny him and wear him out. We have the bench to do this. We don't have the depth of tall/long players we might need against other teams or in the NCAA tourney.

As for the opinion "Let Weems get his points, he has no support." - How did we lose to SIU at home? Did Paul Miller single-handedly give us a victory over SIU in 2006?

If by "Weems type of player" you mean defending POY types who are 5th year seniors and immensely talented, then, yes, we are likely to have our hands full guarding that type of player successfully for 40 straight minutes. Those kind of special players tend to get their successes one way or the other. They rarely can carry an entire team to victory, and to save you the effort, if you say "well Kemba Walker did" then I will concede the point if we run into a Kemba Walker at one of the Valley schools we will probably lose. Last time I checked rosters, I didn't see that type of player, so I'll take my chances.

Carmichael isn't going to be guarded by Smith or Murry so I don't know why you bring that up. It's like saying the sun doesn't rise in the west.

Jake Koch is a soft player and will hate being guarded by Hall and frankly won't like Smith either. Not too worried about 40 minutes of that issue. Plus UNI is likely to start a (very talented) but inexperienced freshman point guard against our seniors and DWill. I like our chances to prevail in that match up. Pehl is horrible and incapable of guarding any of our post men without fouling out in 5 minutes. Even a dynamic turn around in 10 months would still place him behind every post player at WSU sans Jake White and he would be miles behind White offensively.

Dougie and E are the toughest pair in the league and a big reason why Creighton is picked to win the Valley and getting top 25 votes. It will be a tough game for the Shocks.

[SpanglerFan316]

If Wilkins defends either Stutz or Hall that person will score 90% of the time. Wilkins is a 2-3. If Threloff and Jackie play at the same time, Stutz and Hall match up against those 2 quite favorably. Hall will be just fine against Carmichael, and every other 4 (or 5 for that matter) in the league except McDermott whom will cause problems for everyone.

Remember the ISU-red team in Carmichael's first year. If I recall correctly, Carmichael was the 4 and Odiakosa was the 5 when Osiris Eldridge was not in the game. It would not surprise me to see Jankovich try to recreate that "big look" because his team wasn't good last year. With Wilkins as the 3, Carmichael as the 4 and Threloff as the 5, ISU has a frontline that is 6'9", 6'9" and 6'10" and might cause some defensive problems for other teams.

[SpanglerFan316]

WuDrWu: I hope you are right. Just as we hope for improvement from EO, other teams will hope for improvement from their bigs. If they don't get that improvement or if the rest of their team is too weak, WSU will steam-roll them and we will sit back and be happy. I'm not worried if this is how it turns out. It's the possibility that other teams' bigs have improved that is on my mind right now.

[vancedave56]

When discussing who the 4's and 5's are, I'm much, much more concerned about the defensive end then the offensive end. Sure, Stutz can venture out on offense, but what's going to happen on the other end of the court when he has to guard a quick, 6'6" guy?

Nobody said Stutz would be guarding a 4 nor Hall guarding a 5 - we are saying the same thing just at opposite ends of the court - if it works out this way, it would actually be to our advantage.

Stutz drags the other team's big men out on offense (at times) - but he can handle them defensively inside at the other end.
Hall posts up against other team's 4's offensively, covers them defensively.

[Maggie]

Kyle Weems is unlikely to enjoy the minutes when Carl Hall is assigned to guard him.

Maybe - and I see Hall as a Knicks/Oakley player, at least for now. But Murry won't defend Weems unless it is absolutely necessary. And even then, through not fault of his own, Murry would be hard pressed to handle him. Rather it be Smith.