Wichita State at USF Game Thread

[Aargh]

Didn't I hear somewhere that USF had 12 (TWELVE) new players on their roster? That kind of makes the "we're so young" excuse go out the window. USF is going through a bigger rebuild than WSU, and they're a long ways ahead of WSU in that rebuild, AND they're doing it with a first-year coach.

I've watched recruiting for years, and seen year after year, Marshall bringing in "combo guards" and trying to make them D1 PG's. That has worked exactly once in Marshall's entire time here. That was Shamet, and if Shamet could have played SG instead of PG, last year's team would appear to have been a lot stronger than it was.

Frankamp was brought in and everyone, probably including Marshall, was certain he was the PG of the future. When that didn't work out, we picked up SHJ. His JuCo stats didn't give the slightest hint that he had the mentality or skills needed to be a D1 PG. I thought his recruiting was sort of "this guy wants to come here? Sure - bring him". IIRC he didn't have much D1 interest coming out of Hutch.

I'm certain there are players who won't commit to WSU because of Marshal;l's rep as a hard ass. It doesn't get any easier when "hard ass" gets combined with "loser". I know Marshall has a long-term rep as a winner, but "what have you done lately" is a factor in recruiting. It's not going to get easier.

From looking at body language and on court behavior, I don't think Stevenson is real popular among his teammates. He gets targeted and abused on D.

He was a prolific scorer in HS, but got those stats by taking a boatload of shots. His shooting %'s in HS were not impressive, but somehow he got the reputation of being an efficient scorer. His hustle and motor are great. His attitude might be an issue with chemistry. He's not good at offense or defense. He's got great ups, but his ability to stay in front of a driving player is non-existent.

By now, the JuCo guys should be rounding into shape and we should be able to see their potential. JE is hurt, so he gets a pass. Torres must have played some really low levels of competition in JuCo. By now, we should have an indication of what the Fr can do, and all I see is that some of them are good enough to be considered projects.

the posters who have said that cutting a bunch of them and bringing in new guys could easily be worse are correct. That means we're looking to be fairly bad for several years. Maybe worse than fairly bad.

Marshall may not have to cut any players. Some might take the Reaves strategy and decide they'd rather play for a better team. I don't know if any better teams would take any of this year's players.

Think about this for just a moment. Next year we lose two players who are easily the best two players on the team.

[IndianaShocker]

I'm also not a member of the "ES is the next Ron Baker" club. You're right in your evaluation of his offense and defense. It wears thin on teammates when guys talk the talk but can't walk the walk.

[Topshock]

A lot of truth in this Aargh. I however don't think the inevitable exit of several players after this year has to mean a worse team next year. Replace them with a transfer, a good juco player and some recruits that can shoot along with what is already recruited and TA and next year can be a lot better.

[BOBB]

Long post warning

Forced myself to watch the whole game “Clockwork Orange” style. Not much to like. I waited to post until I chilled out. I think some of the heat of the moment posts about the players were over the top.

A wholesale exchange of players will lead us right back to where we are.

As someone else noted there aren’t many coaches in HCGM’s pay scale putting out a product like this. Krystkowiak is a perennial underperformer at Utah. West Virginia does not look particularly good this year, but both teams would smoke us I think.

i believe HCGM put all his chips on the table for last year’s team to make a deep run and we rolled snake eyes. They never jelled (no point guard?) and many of us saw cracks in the product. This is a tough business. A couple of bad hires, weak recruits, taking your eye off the ball and it snowballs and you end up here.

Just like problems in your marriage, your business, your weight, they don’t happen overnight and they don’t get fixed overnight. I think HCGM has earned the right to fix it. First part of that is taking 100% ownership of it.

All that being said, we finished sub 500 in the Valley in 2009 with Stutz, Murry , Kyles, Hatch, Durley, Clemente, Ellis and Hannah. Whodathunk that crew would go on to win an NIT? The sole difference is that in 2008 we were dealing with a bare cupboard situation overseen by a former coach. This year we are in a bare cupboard situation caused by a current coach. HCGM has a good track record of cleaning up messes. This time he gets to clean up his own.

[pie n eye]

Ha. I swear I didn’t read your post before making mine on Future? thread.

Obviously yours was much better written.

[Downtown Shocker Brown]

We held a D1 basketball team that is now 13-4 almost 7 mins without a FG. And its not like they were going to the line a lot. We cut an 18 pt deficit on the road to 6 before they scored a FG.

Im all about accountability, but don’t trash the kids for what they did well.

We went on the road, held them to 30% FG, outrebounded them, including 16 offensive rebounds, had more assist, and forced 18 turnovers. Our problems came from the FT line, and shooting low percentage shots. That can be improved. The effort is something that is there and can be built off of.

[ShockerFever]

13-6*

USF is improved but they aren't THAT good. Hence why they were only a 2 point favorite at home against us last night.

[TheShocktocles]

The Shockers shooting was just so shockingly poor tonight. 15-53 (28.3%), 2-18 (11.1%) and 9-22 (40.9%).

That is hard to fathom. Perhaps some credit goes to USF's defense but they weren't that good.

This loss is not about coaching or making adjustments and all that other stuff. Blah blah blah. When you shoot this bad you are not going to beat many teams. In the first half alone I watched several players that couldn't finish a dam layup. I kept saying finish!! Nope another 2ft miss. And then when you add the poor free throw shooting into the mix we are going to lose. I think we went 8 minutes without scoring in the 1st half.

[rjl]

We missed a few bunnies early, but the remainder of the first half was one-on-one from the perimeter. No plays, no clue what to do.

[Dan]

Watching Jamie Echenigue airball layups was possibly the ultimate low

[MadDog]

I still stand by my unpopular position that we need to bite the bullet and have some major roster turnover at the end of this season. I appreciate as much as anyone how hard these guys play and that they want to win. I’ve said before and will say again that Coach Marshall is the best coach in school history and should have a banner hanging next to Ralph Miller’s. I also understand all the unfortunate events that got us into this position. But as they say, we are where we are, and as much as we may like these players for a large variety of reasons, tough decisions have to be made.

Many of our guys are simply too small for their positions relative to our AAC peers and the incoming class as it stands now is not going to fix that. For example, look at our 4 position next year. AAC 4’s are in the 6’9” 220 range. Rod Brown is short at 6’6” and has not demonstrated any perimeter skills. New recruit Gordon weighs 175 lbs. His HS inside game isn’t going to fly in the AAC. I hope he can shoot the 3. Poor Bear is big enough, but is he quick enough to guard guys on the perimeter?

We have similar issues at both the 1 and 2. That could be overcome somewhat by exceptional shooters which of course we don’t have. We need guys with size and athleticism like Cumberland at Cincinnati or the Temple guards. Our little guards RT and ES get abused because they are not big enough. Our incoming point is physically very small.

I do however think we good at the 3 and 5 for next year.

[molly jabali]

When we talk about MAJOR roster turnover...we DO realize there is not a store out there where you pick your team like groceries....most of the good kids that we would want right now are probably gone for next year...

Outside of Torres(who I don't get one bit) every one of these players has shown GOOD stuff ON OCCASION....leads me to think it can happen again with patience, which fans here have ZERO of...

There is a lot about Marshall that drives me crazy, but I guess I'm bemused that many of us on here who PROBABLY never played or coached now know more that he does...

I'm sure Kentucky fans are glad they didn't force Calipari out after his one and done NIT season about 5 years ago.....

I'm done....there ARE things to like about this group, but they have not all shown it on the same night...

[asiseeit]

Good post ! Way too much negativity. Remember, this team has beaten Providence, Baylor,
and UCF and has been pretty competitive most of the time. Even Texas Tech only scored
45 points last night and I believe they start FIVE seniors. Poop happens.

[TheShocktocles]

Who is the emotional leader of this team? For some reason I could see ES taking that role.

Please!!!!!! Yeah he is emotional but not a leader. ES needs to stfu. What he needs to do is learn how to play defense without fouling and hit the open shot when he gets it. That would go a long way in helping this team. He also seems to be one of a few that is able to make the pass to our big guys something I wish our seniors could do.

[RoyalShock]

We held a D1 basketball team that is now 13-4 almost 7 mins without a FG. And its not like they were going to the line a lot. We cut an 18 pt deficit on the road to 6 before they scored a FG.

Im all about accountability, but don’t trash the kids for what they did well.

We went on the road, held them to 30% FG, outrebounded them, including 16 offensive rebounds, had more assist, and forced 18 turnovers. Our problems came from the FT line, and shooting low percentage shots. That can be improved. The effort is something that is there and can be built off of.

There are many performance factors that combine to determine whether a basketball game is won or lost. I am hoping last night was a case where there was a statistical anomaly where a whole lot of those factors (namely, individual play on the offensive end - shooting, turnovers; fouling on defense) missed their mark, resulting in am embarrassing loss. Defensively, we played well enough to win had just a few things been better.

I think the individual play on offense will get better so a game like this doesn't happen again. I am concerned about the fouling, at least for the remainder of the season.

Any player who isn't shooting at least 75% FT for the season, need to get their asses in the gym and practice them until their arms fall off, reattach them during a 10 minute break, then do it again. I know we've had some games with excellent FT shooting, but we've had too many that were awful, and could have been a difference in the outcome.

[molly jabali]

There are many performance factors that combine to determine whether a basketball game is won or lost. I am hoping last night was a case where there was a statistical anomaly where a whole lot of those factors (namely, individual play on the offensive end - shooting, turnovers; fouling on defense) missed their mark, resulting in am embarrassing loss. Defensively, we played well enough to win had just a few things been better.

I think the individual play on offense will get better so a game like this doesn't happen again. I am concerned about the fouling, at least for the remainder of the season.

Any player who isn't shooting at least 75% FT for the season, need to get their asses in the gym and practice them until their arms fall off, reattach them during a 10 minute break, then do it again. I know we've had some games with excellent FT shooting, but we've had too many that were awful, and could have been a difference in the outcome.

I TOTALLY AGREE about the free throw thing, but I HAVE to think Brown's was kind of a one night anomaly.....

[Stickboy46]

I TOTALLY AGREE about the free throw thing, but I HAVE to think Brown's was kind of a one night anomaly.....

Rod Brown was 12-16 coming into the game from the FT line. So 80% on a small sample size. 1-7 is definitely an anomaly.

[Husker4Shockers]

I think you may be right about that. I said early on that his shot looked funny; he never looked comfortable and it was like he was trying to guide the ball in some weird way, not trust his stroke. I never noticed that about him before; maybe he had something wrong with an arm or hand?

[AZ Shocker]

Did that damn flu bug hit our squad before heading down to Tampa???

Or did the tough schedule finally catch up to us and our young guys are just "spent"???

[pinstripers]

"

Too many possessions wilted away while WSU’s players went a full 30 seconds without executing a single dangerous action. Not a single cut, screen or dribble penetration were accomplished with vigor. The end result, more times than not, was a contested heave from the perimeter just to beat the shot clock."

Read more here: https://www.kansas.com/sports/colleg...#storylink=cpy

[Stickboy46]

I said this during the game. We don't seem to understand how to use screens. A player sets a screen, the dribbler leaves 3 feet between him and the screener and the defender slides right in between. On top of that, the hedge man is there so we just go side to side. We can't make a dangerous action because we can't get any separation. Use those screens properly then make a cut. Make the defense scramble a bit. Fred was a master at this. He would not only use the screen to get around, but then slide in behind the screener, hesitate and get the defender on his back and make a play.

I'm actually surprised we don't get called for more illegal screens due to this. Often we are leaning or sticking legs out trying to make contact as the defender is moving through the truck sized gap between the screener and the ball handler.

EDIT:

Watch this video. If the handler would just rub shoulders with the screener then immediately go North-South ... so much would open up. The hedger is getting off the side of the handler leaving a path towards the basket.

[rjl]

I hate to beat a dead horse, but isn't this something the players should have learned a long time ago? Like, if not in high school and AAU ball, by game 5 or 6 of this season? Are the players really that bad, or are we just really bad at teaching fundamentals?

That video in Taylor's tweet is just so frustrating. Absolutely no plays being run. None. We blew the scout on this game, and we left the game with 4 ****ing timeouts that we could have used to try something. I hope Marshall owns this loss just as much as the players.

[Dan]

our use of screens is pitiful. You learn this in 6th grade, you rub the man screening so you can shake your defender. Our guys all leave huge gaps, I have no idea why this isn't corrected. On the other hand, USF did a really good job on their screens, as our guys try to bull rush through them and of course get called for fouls.

[JVShocker]

Ummm, and I can't be the only one here. I don't want to watch it, I don't want to see it ever again, I don't want to think about it. Forget about it. It never happened.

On an unrelated note: You want to watch good basketball, turn the darn channel, that what we do.

[ShockingButTrue]

The players looked disinterested last night. Tuning coach out?

[Mr. Pickle]

Not sure if guys are mentally wearing down or not, but we just looked unfocused and on another planet last night. I understand you will have poor shooting nights (more often than not with this team), but it is beyond frustrating that we:

1. Cant guard anyone without fouling/keep starters out of foul trouble

2. Get beat on almost every 50/50 ball

3. Have not learned/adjusted at all to not turning the ball over or running an actual offense.