Recant Regards Ralph Miller

[Shocker1976]

After today's loss to Temple, I want to recant my posts regarding Marshall surpassing IMO Ralph Miller as the greatest Shocker Mens Basketball Coach. I was premature drawing such a conclusion.

I was very young when Ralph was coaching the Shockers but I cannot recall a single season in which he coached the Shockers where the Shockers would clearly establish their superiority in the first half and then lose the game(s) in the second half. I also recall that Ralph's record with the Shockers season after season was built on playing the best teams in the country both out of conference and in conference; i.e. playing in the Valley of Death rather than in the Valley of Mediocrity.

[pie n eye]

Face palm

[shoxlax]

The topics started after this game are some of the worst in this boards history

[Shocker1976]

The topics started after this game are some of the worst in this boards history

I don't live in Kansas so I have to depend on what I see on television and hear from Mike Kennedy via the internet; so I went to Charleston to watch the Shockers. The Shocker play today is not IMO at the level of play they exhibited against Davidson, Appalachian State and Alabama in that tournament. IMO the move to the AAC is revealing regards the Shocker basketball program.

The Shockers' first season in the AAC was disappointing given the experience and quality of the roster. However, this year's performance is going to be a total disaster unless Marshall is capable of coaching this roster and not letting two "lacking" seniors control this season's destiny. IMO the February 9th game against Tulane in Wichita could be the first conference victory for this Shocker team unless Marshall removes his head from rectum defilade.

[BostonWu]

After today's loss to Temple, I want to recant my posts regarding Marshall surpassing IMO Ralph Miller as the greatest Shocker Mens Basketball Coach. I was premature drawing such a conclusion.

I was very young when Ralph was coaching the Shockers but I cannot recall a single season in which he coached the Shockers where the Shockers would clearly establish their superiority in the first half and then lose the game(s) in the second half. I also recall that Ralph's record with the Shockers season after season was built on playing the best teams in the country both out of conference and in conference; i.e. playing in the Valley of Death rather than in the Valley of Mediocrity.

Not sure I agree that the Shockers "clearly established their superiority" at any point in this game. Just because they were ahead by double digits doesn't mean they were the superior team that you are inferring with your coaching comparison.

[Shocker1976]

Establishing superiority is a point on which we can disagree

[BostonWu]

I don't live in Kansas so I have to depend on what I see on television and hear from Mike Kennedy via the internet; so I went to Charleston to watch the Shockers. The Shocker play today is not IMO at the level of play they exhibited against Davidson, Appalachian State and Alabama in that tournament. IMO the move to the AAC is revealing regards the Shocker basketball program.

The Shockers' first season in the AAC was disappointing given the experience and quality of the roster. However, this year's performance is going to be a total disaster unless Marshall is capable of coaching this roster and not letting two "lacking" seniors control this season's destiny. IMO the February 9th game against Tulane in Wichita could be the first conference victory for this Shocker team unless Marshall removes his head from rectum defilade.

Why would you call this season a total disaster? What were your expectations going in?

[Shocker1976]

I was predicting/hoping for 18-20 wins; not IMO a possibility given where the Shockers are today. Hopefully the Shockers can finish with 12 -14 wins but if Marshall continues to coach as he has thus far then for me 5 conference wins is possible - a disaster.

[Shockm]

After today's loss to Temple, I want to recant my posts regarding Marshall surpassing IMO Ralph Miller as the greatest Shocker Mens Basketball Coach. I was premature drawing such a conclusion.

I was very young when Ralph was coaching the Shockers but I cannot recall a single season in which he coached the Shockers where the Shockers would clearly establish their superiority in the first half and then lose the game(s) in the second half. I also recall that Ralph's record with the Shockers season after season was built on playing the best teams in the country both out of conference and in conference; i.e. playing in the Valley of Death rather than in the Valley of Mediocrity.

And yet a good number of fans went after the future HOF coach and wanted him gone even though over an extended period of time, Wichita State was considered a nationally relevant program. My question to you would be to ask if Ralph ever coached a team with only one part time starter returning. Marshall has had much more NCAA success than Ralph but if Ralph had stayed in Wichita, he would have given WSU a Top 50 winning coach. I consider Ralph on par with the top coaches in history. However, most of those coaches who built a power didn’t move on. They stayed for most of their career.

[Shocker1976]

And yet a good number of fans went after the future HOF coach and wanted him gone even though over an extended period of time, Wichita State was considered a nationally relevant program. My question to you would be to ask if Ralph ever coached a team with only one part time starter returning. Marshall has had much more NCAA success than Ralph but if Ralph had stayed in Wichita, he would have given WSU a Top 50 winning coach. I consider Ralph on par with the top coaches in history. However, most of those coaches who built a power didn’t move on. They stayed for most of their career.

I don't know the answer to you question am interested enough to do the research to hopefully find the answer.

As to Marshall's "...more NCAA success" please consider the quality of the teams played by Ralph's Shockers versus Marshall. For example, I remember a three game road trip during which Ralph's Shockers played three highly ranked teams earning a possible #1 Poll ranking if not for an out of his a** last second basket by Cazzie Russell at Michigan.

[1972Shocker]

Also in Ralph's 1st year in 1951-52 only 16 teams were in the NCAA Tournament field. During Ralph's final 12 years at WSU the field was between 22-25 teams. The route the NCAA Tournament was winning the Missouri Valley Conference regular season championship. No easy feat in the Valley of Death years.

[Shocker1976]

And yet a good number of fans went after the future HOF coach and wanted him gone even though over an extended period of time, Wichita State was considered a nationally relevant program. My question to you would be to ask if Ralph ever coached a team with only one part time starter returning. Marshall has had much more NCAA success than Ralph but if Ralph had stayed in Wichita, he would have given WSU a Top 50 winning coach. I consider Ralph on par with the top coaches in history. However, most of those coaches who built a power didn’t move on. They stayed for most of their career.

The answer to your question is YES Ralph's first season (51-52) he had 4 freshmen and fillers (JUCO and walk-on). He finished season 11-19; competing in the #5 ranked conference with two ranked teams (St Louis AP #5 highest ranked). Second season (52-53) went 16-11 with 4 Sophomores and fillers; third season (53-54) went 27-4, AP #11 during season.

Season 1959-60 went 14-12 with 4 Sophomores - Shockers played AP #1 Cincinnati, AP #4 Bradley, and St Louis AP #15 during league play.

Attached link provides excellent resource information.

[Shockm]

The answer to your question is YES Ralph's first season (51-52) he had 4 freshmen and fillers (JUCO and walk-on). He finished season 11-19; competing in the #5 ranked conference with two ranked teams (St Louis AP #5 highest ranked). Second season (52-53) went 16-11 with 4 Sophomores and fillers; third season (53-54) went 27-4, AP #11 during season.

Season 1959-60 went 14-12 with 4 Sophomores - Shockers played AP #1 Cincinnati, AP #4 Bradley, and St Louis AP #15 during league play.

Attached link provides excellent resource information.

"The more NCAA success that Marshall has had referred to his NCAA Tourney success. During this age of NCAA Basketball, the success WSU has had for the past 7-8 years is nothing but remarkable. If we follow up this season which hopefully approaches 500, with a more successful run at the American Championship, our place on the National Landscape will continue.

So Miller didn't have 8 Freshmen? I don't really care who is the greatest coach in our history. I just think that our inexperience is showing, but our talent level is still good. No program can win without experience against good quality teams. We should have taken the 11 point lead we built with less than 4 minutes remaining and won but our inexperience showed and you can't get experience without playing games against good quality competition.

[Shocker1976]

"The more NCAA success that Marshall has had referred to his NCAA Tourney success. During this age of NCAA Basketball, the success WSU has had for the past 7-8 years is nothing but remarkable. If we follow up this season which hopefully approaches 500, with a more successful run at the American Championship, our place on the National Landscape will continue.

So Miller didn't have 8 Freshmen? I don't really care who is the greatest coach in our history. I just think that our inexperience is showing, but our talent level is still good. No program can win without experience against good quality teams. We should have taken the 11 point lead we built with less than 4 minutes remaining and won but our inexperience showed and you can't get experience without playing games against good quality competition.

Correct not 8 (9 originally) but only 4 Freshman and Miller did not have the resources that Marshall enjoys.

[FadedCrown]

What is this abysmal excuse for a post?

[WeWillShockU]

Why this post? Get a clue. This is a young team that is learning to win. The wins will come. Coach Marshall had them in position to win but he cannot make the passes for them.

[Shocker1976]

We are not discussing this Shocker team; we are discussing Ralph Miller versus Marshall regards the greatest Shocker Coach

[Shocker1976]

What is this abysmal excuse for a post?

Please explain what you mean by using the word :abysmal; is the topic of discussion beyond your comprehension?

[FadedCrown]

I don't think you understand just how unreasonable you sound and how unreasonable this post is.

[Shocker1976]

I forgot how young you are; do you know who Ralph Miller was and what he did for Shocker basketball?

Nothing unreasonable; I am just admitting publicly that I now think I was wrong when I got on the Marshall bandwagon and publicly declared Marshall a better coach than Ralph Miller. IMO Marshall is still a good coach but he is not the best coach to ever have lead the Shockers.

[insaneykaney]

After today's loss to Temple, I want to recant my posts regarding Marshall surpassing IMO Ralph Miller as the greatest Shocker Mens Basketball Coach. I was premature drawing such a conclusion.

I was very young when Ralph was coaching the Shockers but I cannot recall a single season in which he coached the Shockers where the Shockers would clearly establish their superiority in the first half and then lose the game(s) in the second half. I also recall that Ralph's record with the Shockers season after season was built on playing the best teams in the country both out of conference and in conference; i.e. playing in the Valley of Death rather than in the Valley of Mediocrity.

I sincerely hope you woke up this morning and re-read this with regret.

[Shockadaisical]

Why would he regret that? It is a fact that the Valley of Ralph Miller's days, heck of Gene Smithson's days was a lot tougher then it has ever been the last decade. This is the reason the Shockers needed to move on. This is actually the stiffest test of Marshall's coaching career( trying to rebuild a roster after it being gutted, in a high level league). Rooting for him and I believe he will get it done. That being said Shocker1976 brings some very valid points to his assertion that at this point in time Ralph Miller is the best coach in Shockers history