We've lost our edge

[C0|dB|00ded]

This is right. I'm a little puzzled about all this "Play Angry" talk. All I really care about it that we WIN GAMES. I loved the Play Angry mantra when we were in the Final 4. I loved it again when we were 31-1. Last year, we won almost 30 games against a tremendous schedule and in a league that was very good, while some of you BITCHED about how we won. While we underachieved in the NCAA Tournament, and our defense wasn't up the the F4 standards, I would love to be a Top 20 team again this year, like we were last year. We beat Top 10/20 Cincinnati there, and we defeated a very good Houston team by 25 points. Additionally, we were a Top 4 Seed in the Tournament.

Would I trade this year for last year? In a heart beat. In the meantime, I will wait (and hope to see the day) for this team to achieve up the the standards of last years team (2018), and also (2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, and 2013). Some of you forget where we were in 2010, 2009, 2008, etc. I don't forget those days in a minute and now we are there. I don't really care if we are good on offense or defense. I just want to win again.

Play Angry is not just a mantra...

I'm glad you enjoyed last season as I was miserable. I hated how we won. Gregg Marshall did too as he said so continuously. I saw major cracks for the first time in our team's collective mental resolve. It appears that what I saw last year has became a harbinger of where we are now. I wouldn't have bet you even a dollar that we'd be soft again this year though - especially with Jans's assistant. I'm actually as surprised as I am dismayed.


T


...:cool:

[pinstripers]

Just a though...not even sure if I buy it but:

might be easier to play angry with 1, 2, and 3 star recruits who feel under appreciated and overlooked vs. 3 and 4 star recruits who had school after school fighting for their services

Absolutely, no question

[C0|dB|00ded]

Just a though...not even sure if I buy it but:

might be easier to play angry with 1, 2, and 3 star recruits who feel under appreciated and overlooked vs. 3 and 4 star recruits who had school after school fighting for their services

That has been the theory since the beginning hence the oft-used phrase "finding diamonds in the rough" when talking Shocker recruiting. Maybe it's not so much finding diamonds as it is repurposing solid gemstones so that they may reach higher heights - as a team. Ron Baker comes to mind here. He could have been a 20 point scorer on a soft team like the BJ, but instead he fully adopts Gregg Marshall's Play Angry system, sacrifices some of his offensive potential, and becomes an extremely valuable utility player helping to propel Wichita State to national prominence.

He could guard, he could rebound, he could block shots, he could shoot, he could finish at the rim... the boy did everything very well. Most importantly, he NEVER took a shift off.


T


...:cool:

[C0|dB|00ded]

na

[C0|dB|00ded]

You are right. I do believe that the soft vibe from this group is for a different reason than last years group. Don’t get me wrong, a guy like IPC or Mitgaard may be soft for the same reasons some of last years guys were (which is more of an inherent softness), but when you talk about guys like Burton, Stevenson, Udeze, Dennis, Rod, and Torres, those guys aren’t soft. They just need to learn how to play at this level. Their problem is that they are only 12 games into their careers.

When our shots aren’t falling what happens? Well often times we actually get stops for a while. We have had multiple games this year where during our own shooting slumps we were getting stop after stop after stop. But play angry or not, you can only get so many stops before the opponent starts hitting shots and before we need to start hitting ours as well. Not every issue we have is about being “soft” or not “playing angry”. Some of it is legit us sucking offensively.

You rejecting those suggestions = you rejecting the truth. Most teams in the country preach play angry, but they just call it something different. These teams and coaches know that freshman struggle with playing hard on this level and most coaches have some sort of quote out there referrencing that fact. Playing hard (i.e. playing angry) is a skill. Just like any other skill, it needs time to develop. Those specific examples that you just gave of play angry type things are actually good examples of how youth can suck at it. When you see a weak dribbler go for a steal? Putting aside the fact that I don’t think coach wants guys to go for a steal every time they see a weak dribbler, some of these guys couldn’t even identify what a foul is on this level, so why assume that they can identify a weak dribbler? Help out and go for a steal? But that requires leaving your man. Freshman have a hard time understanding that defense isn’t just about your match up and that you need to help your teammates out. That lack of understanding isn’t a lack of effort, but rather a lack of good basketball IQ.

So you believe that last year's softness and this year's softness are two completely independent outlier events in the entirety of Marshall's coaching career at Wichita State? I'll allow you that argument, but I do believe your intentions are firmly rooted in faith. Totally understandable. I don't want to witness the end of our golden era either. The more likely reality however is that there is a regression in the implementation of a system that has brought Gregg Marshall loads of success and national acclaim at WSU.

Yes, offense is needed to win games but offense doesn't enjoy any kind of special standing in Gregg Marshall's world (or didn't use to). A celebration of offense is afforded only to the top 10-15 schools in the country with the most highly gifted pros-in-waiting. Even that is not enough sometimes as a strong defensive effort can rock their spoon-fed worlds. All you need to do is look back on historic defensive performances from schools like Wichita State *ahem*. Sure there are plenty of other schools wayyyy outside the top 15 - like Creighton - who celebrate offense first... how's that working out for them?

The bottom line is this: offense comes and goes, but a team that buys into a defense-first philosophy will be tough to beat on ANY night. The defensive-minded team will always be in the game waiting for their offense to wake up and close the deal. When your defense is spotty (or nonexistent) you must rely on your offense. This is a very dangerous game rife with wheelbarrow's full of one-and-done NCAA tourney exits. Last year's team was exceptional offensively but spotty defensively and VERY spotty Play Angrily.

Now I shouldn't speak so much on defense alone as it will confuse my readers. Defense and Play Angry are related but are not the same thing. Plenty of teams play stingy defense but I believe there have only been a handful of teams over the last decade that play what I would call Play Angry basketball; that's Wichita State and VCU. Two historically nasty teams you DO NOT want to play if you don't have to.

Hell, we even stole VCU's song (and some of their recruits lol).

Play Angry is our secret sauce that we lay on top of fundamentally sound defense. It equates to a boatload of wins.


T


...:cool:

[C0|dB|00ded]

"playing angry" is an intangible that can't be measured. in addition, you may have one or two players doing
their level best to play that way but it takes the entire team playing together that way consistently. We
certainly had a flicker in the first half of the Baylor game of what this team is capable of. Last years team
simply relied to much on their offense and, as a team, got too lazy on defense from time to time. I, for one, want
to put last year behind us and I am NOT ready to give up on THIS years team nor do I believe GM ever will.
Simply put, except for maybe ES who plays his a** off the rest of the team needs to put forth the same kind of effort
every minute of every game..........that is all any of us can ask for.

As I said earlier, Play Angry is not quantifiable (unless you want to try and correlate it to our wins), but it is qualifiable. Coaches and commentators all say the same thing: The Shockers are so fun to watch because they play so hard.

"Play Angry" is (or was...) our edge. It is what separated us from the other 300 D1 schools that don't get their pick of 4 and 5 star players every year. We simply out-hustled, out-fought the other team using top 100-200 recruits. Gregg Marshall's genius is in how he stubbornly sticks to his game plan. His entire career has been about using his salesmanship and work ethic to recruit athletes that are superior to the current conference he is in. He was able to do that in the Big South and the MVC. It remains to be seen if he can do that in the AAC on a consistent basis. He then takes said superior athletes and pushes them in practice until they nearly drop dead. On game day he brings a deep bench in great cardiovascular shape and runs them on very short shifts. A Gregg Marshall game is fast paced and frenetic. He wants his team to take care of the ball while forcing turnovers. He wins by having more possessions than the other team which gives him a shooting percentage buffer. His fast-paced system is also why he doesn't take time outs. If a cornerstone of your game plan is to get the opposition frazzled, tired, and broken, why on earth would you hand them a free break so they can return to their coach for reassurance and guidance? You don't. Gregg wants to break the opposition mentally and physically. That is his game plan (or has been his game plan most of his career). He knows he would lose most games if the outcome were decided on time-out plays.

This year and last, we have been playing some type of a hybrid system which has expectedly made Marshall look much less like a coaching genius.

"you may have one or two players doing
their level best to play that way but it takes the entire team playing together that way consistently."

Even though what you say is true regarding unequal effort resulting in a poor Play Angry showing, I cannot accept that as an excuse because Gregg Marshall surely didn't his entire career. There was no "if this guy would just put forth the effort". You either killed yourself in practice or died a quick death at the end of the bench awaiting your transfer papers. This was all made clear in the recruit's living room in front of his parents who were expected to hold the player accountable WHEN he called home crying. We'd always have one or two burnouts every year, but the last two years the slackers have ruled the roost. The players willing to Play Angry are now in the minority and that has to fall on the coaching staff unless we are suffering from widespread injury. I do believe Zach Brown had knee problems last year which hurt us significantly on perimeter defense. Play Angry requires able-bodied athletes.


T


...:cool:

[1972Shocker]

I much prefer the MTXE slogan I assume Gene Smithson must have it copyrighted or registered as a trademark or we would still use it. To me Play Angry conveys playing mad not always the best approach. MTXE conveys playing mentally and physically with great toughness and desire.

[wusphlash]

Is there a difference between "play angry" and "MTXE"? What about the 2005/2006 and 2011/2012 teams who were successful in their own right but certainly lacked monikers defining their style of play? Oh, and should there be an asterisk beside the 2012/2013 team regarding their 4 losses to Evansville and a Charmin soft Creighton team?

[Shockm]

"playing angry" is an intangible that can't be measured.

This is right. I'm a little puzzled about all this "Play Angry" talk. All I really care about it that we WIN GAMES. I loved the Play Angry mantra when we were in the Final 4. I loved it again when we were 31-1. Last year, we won almost 30 games against a tremendous schedule and in a league that was very good, while some of you BITCHED about how we won. While we underachieved in the NCAA Tournament, and our defense wasn't up the the F4 standards, I would love to be a Top 20 team again this year, like we were last year. We beat Top 10/20 Cincinnati there, and we defeated a very good Houston team by 25 points. Additionally, we were a Top 4 Seed in the Tournament.

Would I trade this year for last year? In a heart beat. In the meantime, I will wait (and hope to see the day) for this team to achieve up the the standards of last years team (2018), and also (2017, 2016, 2015, 2014, and 2013). Some of you forget where we were in 2010, 2009, 2008, etc. I don't forget those days in a minute and now we are there. I don't really care if we are good on offense or defense. I just want to win again.

[N Crestway]

Yes. Last year’s team was soft as pudding. This year has been a continuation. I’ll put up with twenty losses if we are grinding it out and making it hard for the other team. We laid down for VCU.

I will say that bad offensive possessions are part of our bad defense. However, maintaining composure on offense when you’re down is part of a toughness mentality, So it is all interrelated.

Probably why two of WSU's three 2019 recruits are point guards. Two years out, WSU will consistently be playing smarter...when this year's freshman class are juniors and the new point guards have a year under their belts.

[MelvinLoudermilk]

Just a though...not even sure if I buy it but:

might be easier to play angry with 1, 2, and 3 star recruits who feel under appreciated and overlooked vs. 3 and 4 star recruits who had school after school fighting for their services

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

Oh no, more rational thoughts!

I really wish you could just blame our struggles on overly simplistic and largely incoherent theories such as a future hall of fame coach can't teach basketball anymore, or that toughness alone is the only trait required for a basketball team to win games.

[1989]

You are hypothesizing that two completely separate teams which display an oddly similar soft vibe are not sharing a common cause. You also may be intimating (whether you realize it or not) that a lack of offense is contributory to Play Angry.

I am aware that we can look "good" when we are hitting our shots. But looking "good" and Playing Angry are two completely different things. Playing Angry (or it's lack thereof) is most noticeable when we AREN'T hitting our shots. When we go cold what happens: Do we turtle and watch a cascade of balls rain into our bucket like it's 10 feet wide or do we start playing at such a frenetic pace that the opposition is sped up to the point of total chaos throwing balls to cheerleaders (like what VCU, Houston, etc. did to us).

Last year it was, "We don't have the athletes." Well I can tell you that this year we DO have the athletes.

There's also another premise that people are proposing unknowingly. If we aren't seeing Play Angry, it's because either A) It's difficult to learn, or B) it requires a player to age. I reject both of those suggestions. Play Angry is taught within the first couple practices. You run full blast until your chest is heaving and then you make a fist. Rinse/repeat. When you see a lose ball you dive to it instinctively. When you see a weak dribbler you go for the steal. When you see your teammate engaging the dribbler you help out and go for the steal. All you can think about is getting your hands on that ball. It's your ball. They don't want it as badly as you do. You will die for that ball. That's how Fred played. Maybe there's no such thing as Play Angry, maybe it's Play Fredley. If that's the truth we are in for a world of Creighton,... I mean mediocrity.
:

You are right. I do believe that the soft vibe from this group is for a different reason than last years group. Don’t get me wrong, a guy like IPC or Mitgaard may be soft for the same reasons some of last years guys were (which is more of an inherent softness), but when you talk about guys like Burton, Stevenson, Udeze, Dennis, Rod, and Torres, those guys aren’t soft. They just need to learn how to play at this level. Their problem is that they are only 12 games into their careers.

When our shots aren’t falling what happens? Well often times we actually get stops for a while. We have had multiple games this year where during our own shooting slumps we were getting stop after stop after stop. But play angry or not, you can only get so many stops before the opponent starts hitting shots and before we need to start hitting ours as well. Not every issue we have is about being “soft” or not “playing angry”. Some of it is legit us sucking offensively.

You rejecting those suggestions = you rejecting the truth. Most teams in the country preach play angry, but they just call it something different. These teams and coaches know that freshman struggle with playing hard on this level and most coaches have some sort of quote out there referrencing that fact. Playing hard (i.e. playing angry) is a skill. Just like any other skill, it needs time to develop. Those specific examples that you just gave of play angry type things are actually good examples of how youth can suck at it. When you see a weak dribbler go for a steal? Putting aside the fact that I don’t think coach wants guys to go for a steal every time they see a weak dribbler, some of these guys couldn’t even identify what a foul is on this level, so why assume that they can identify a weak dribbler? Help out and go for a steal? But that requires leaving your man. Freshman have a hard time understanding that defense isn’t just about your match up and that you need to help your teammates out. That lack of understanding isn’t a lack of effort, but rather a lack of good basketball IQ.

[asiseeit]

"playing angry" is an intangible that can't be measured. in addition, you may have one or two players doing
their level best to play that way but it takes the entire team playing together that way consistently. We
certainly had a flicker in the first half of the Baylor game of what this team is capable of. Last years team
simply relied to much on their offense and, as a team, got too lazy on defense from time to time. I, for one, want
to put last year behind us and I am NOT ready to give up on THIS years team nor do I believe GM ever will.
Simply put, except for maybe ES who plays his a** off the rest of the team needs to put forth the same kind of effort
every minute of every game..........that is all any of us can ask for.

[Shockm]

This year is a difficult year. First Landry went professional when almost all of us, weren't thinking that way. Then Austin transferred. That was a double blow that we didn't see coming. Then a Teddy was declared inelibible for a 3rd blow. Teddy was important to have this year, because he could rebound and put the ball in the hole. By himself, he isn't going to save the program and next year depends on others improving too. However, if we had Teddy to go along with Markis, and a couple of others, we might have maintained our NCAA streak and competed for the American Championship. We lost shooters and scorers that we weren't prepared for.

However, JE would have been one of the pieces we need either way. He was coming along and we needed him even with Teddy, etc. He was showing improvement, and he doesn't improve if he doesn't play. Our other 5's have shown some potential, but haven't progressed like JE.

Both TA not becoming eligible and JE's injury (etc.) have been blows that this young team isn't prepared for. With all of our good years, where injuries weren't a problem, we had veterans each year, and depth, this year has been bad luck and bad blows after bad blows. We better just be prepared for the rebuild to take some time.