We've lost our edge

[asiseeit]

We lost nine good players and a lot of fans over hyped their replacements. Secondly, the small
juco guards that looked good at the juco level have played poorly on offense and even worse on defense.
Third, we lost Lomax and AR. With all of this we never had an edge to lose in the first place. GM is
trying to work with what he has got. Personally, I don't think SHJ and RT should be playing much let
alone starting but that is just my opinion. I'll root for them to succeed but just have my doubts.

[shelback]

This team or coach hasn't lost a edge. We might be re loading but it's still a learning curve with a young athletic team. 8 Freshman need I say more. Yesterday was a bad day, I believe a combination of being young, 3 games in 3 weeks, and just one if those days. These kids imo would have looked much better had they been up to game speed and timing, you cant get that in practice. Not saying we would have won because it was one of those day but they would have looked much better.

[shoxlax]

67041576.jpg

Between you and ShockerFever I can’t quit laughing.

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ShockerFever commented
1 hour ago
Slippery slope to mediocrity?

We were a 4 seed in the tourney last year, was a basket away from a conference title, 25+ wins, and ranked around the Top 10 all year.

You're acting like we've been trending downward for years.

What a joke. You're worse than CBB.


'Fever give proshox a break; you will admit that we had mighty chinks in our armor last year. You said it yourself many times. Yes we made the tournament but our performance in said tournament was an excellent illustration of just how far we'd fallen with respect to toughness and poise (I can offer you many more examples). We were not mentally prepared. This year I'm seeing very similar behavior patterns with respect to mental toughness and xtra effort. We had great offensive execution last year but our souls were as frail as wounded puppies when we weren't torching the nets.

I have no idea who's to blame but the natural inclination is to look in the direction of the coaching staff. It could be just a bum crop of mentally weak players but that never hindered Marshall before. He could whip a player into shape like nobody's business turning them into finely honed morale wrecking machines. That didn't happen last year at all. There was no progression. Even Marshall himself said after the NCAA that we had players actually REGRESS throughout the year. How does that happen? Who knows.

I'm only telling it how I see it, my comments in no way should lead anybody to believe I'm losing my love for Marshall. That would be ridiculous thinking. He is the greatest coach we've ever had and we are lucky to have him. But there are some issues and this is a fan board and as a fan we are entitled to share them. Differing opinions is what stimulates conversation. If everybody was just rah rah rah no matter what the traffic in this place wouldn't even buy you a cup of coffee.


T


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Very important during the great run for sure.

But, if you'll recall, for one of the seminal wins on that great run, and that would be against the Chickens, Jans wasn't even a part of the Shocker coaching staff.

I would use that factoid as well when folks were blaming last year's weakness on the Jans effect. But if you remember, we still had Greg Heiar and Steve Forbes when we smoked the ChicKUns. Those guys were legit and Heiar was a charter member of the the Play Angry staff. Now we have nobody from the past except for the boss... and the boss can't do it alone.


T


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[Shocktheheck]

I have not read this entire thread, but can not agree with the title...lost our edge, really?..player experience in top 20, not the same level of player.....every interview HCGM has reminded us of the flow of the season. The first half against Baylor we witnessed how good we can be. And the game vs OU we see the downside of youth (and 0/18 shooting from 2 starters). And has anyone mentioned that OU has a former player sitting on the bench with knowledge of EVERY set we ran and possibly a better understanding of the offense then much of our team...these players will continue to grow and we will take some lumps along the way, true fans will ride it out. Others will call for change and they are idiots...

[ShockerPrez]

This is a developmental season. I wouldn't worry about this large class progressing all the way intact. Guessing that by the end of next year, half will probably have left.

This year needs to be about letting Erik, Dennis, Burton and Udeze play their game and see what we have. Maybe this team isn't going to or never will have that old GM feel. We may never have what we have had in the past and thats ok. Perhaps we will move to a new era with a new breed of players.

[C0|dB|00ded]

That is an interesting theory I was discussing on the AAC board last year. We could be seeing an evolution happening with Gregg Marshall's style. Perhaps Play Angry works with "blue collar" players but not the elite. The only problem with this theory is that it's very dangerous to not 'dance with the one that brought you'. HCGM is a chip on the shoulder kind of guy. He's not a silver spoon nanny kinda coach. Maybe he could become one?

This theory would explain his vastly different demeanor after losses. Of course so would becoming wealthy and comfortable. The only way to find out is to wait and see. Does our program continue to vacillate settling a little lower every year or do we find traction and lurch forward with another deep NCAA run? Stay tuned!


T


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To be able to participate in this thread without losing your composure and looking like an ass, you must be able to shed your emotional attachment to the program and analyze it objectively while taking into account vast amounts of historical data. It requires a deft touch and a nuanced approach. Some of you noobies on here aren't familiar with my work and that's why you feel so naked and hurt right now. I'm not trying to rile you up, honestly.

Let me help you.

Pretend like we aren't talking about the Shockers for a moment. Imagine this is a team called the Clockers and they used to be really tough. Now imagine that the last two years they haven't played as hard as they did the previous eight. Now, where would be the areas of the program you would focus on first in hopes of remedying the issue?

If you still feel relaxed and composed we can continue... feel free to now include specific members of the Shocker team or staff on your list of solutions, but continue to speak in the context of the Clockers. For example: "Gregg Marshall should consider adding younger assistants to his Clocker coaching staff in hopes of eliminating what has been a revolving coaching door the last several years and infusing some energy on the bench."


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...:cool:

[1989]

I feel like you are completely missing the fact that all these new players are the solution to the problem that you keep complaining about and you just aren’t being patient enough to accept that this reset isn’t producing immediate results. All throughout the off season there was a contrast made between these current players and the players we had last year. The talk was about how these new guys (DD, Stevenson, JB, etc...) are more talented, longer, more athletic, and an overall better fit for the AAC. That talk comes from the fact that this is the solution.

Any talk about this new team not “playing angry” ( I swear that term is so corny now because of how often it’s been used in this thread) is premature. Coach knew we would be bad this year. He knew he would have to be patient. Maybe the difference that you are seeing in coach is due to him being patient with a young group (which is what he said he would do from the beginning) and not him losing some sort of edge. You are so focused on the flash (coaches animated demeanor and words, or lack thereof ) and the cute little terms (play angry) that you are losing sight of all context, logic, and reasoning.

[C0|dB|00ded]

His demeanor changed last year not this year.

Playing Angry may sound corny to you but it's measurable. It's a state of mind, a level of agitation that is noticeable from any vantage point immediately. It looks frenetic, desperate, hungry... it has nothing to do with shots made and isn't something that takes a year to teach. It's a killer instinct; absolutely zero mercy (sweep the leg). The worse we play execution-wise the more our knees bleed and the opposition physically suffers.

I got to enjoy this level of intensity for nearly a decade until it became noticeably absent most of last year. This year seems to be more of the same. We've lost the culture that Ron and Fred built - not completely but it's waning severely.

I noticed this summer that we didn't look as physical in scrimmage but I didn't think to mention it. I was just hoping that last year's malaise was due to chemistry issues and a bad batch of dudes.


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[1989]

All those things you just mentioned as being measurable- desperate, hungry, killer instinct- are literally not measurable. But that is not going to be my main point here, just an aside.

If you think “play angry” as a style of play or team identify is something special than you have to think that it’s also something that can’t be easily learned. If it could be adopted so easily than how special is it? Also, we got freshman on the record saying they didn’t even know what was and wasn’t a foul coming into college basketball so how the hell do you expect those same guys to pick up on the play angry way of life in just 8 games.

I’m confused by your mindset of this years team. Do you genuinely not understand that most of what you see now is most likely not what you are going to see in the future? Good freshman typically get better. Whatever you see lacking is likely going to improve. The terrible play right now was predictable. The bright future ahead of us is just as predictable. Chillax, fam.

[1972Shocker]

This is a developmental season. I wouldn't worry about this large class progressing all the way intact. Guessing that by the end of next year, half will probably have left.

This year needs to be about letting Erik, Dennis, Burton and Udeze play their game and see what we have. Maybe this team isn't going to or never will have that old GM feel. We may never have what we have had in the past and thats ok. Perhaps we will move to a new era with a new breed of players.

I agree that this is a developmental season which is essentially a fancier term for a rebuilding season. Someone posted this is a throw away year. Not sure there is any such thing, In fact, the first year or phase of a rebuild is very important, You have to make sure you get a good start on the foundation and that process may take more than one year.

I'm guessing the sophomore class next year will consist of 6 players meaning down 2 from the 8 sophomores to be currently on the roster plus I think we will be down one other player from a different class next year. Beyond next year who knows. These things depend on a plethora of variables that makes this difficult to predict with any accuracy.

[Wooglin]

ShockerFever commented


Even Marshall himself said after the NCAA that we had players actually REGRESS throughout the year. How does that happen? Who knows.



...:cool:

I remember an interview with Coach Marshall and he wondered if the Shocks overachieved 2 years ago and underachieved last year even though the core players returned.

An injury here, a banked 3 there, a big game before a mid-term test or problems at home can affect a player, a team and a season. When a new season starts, its easy to have high expectations, especially when on paper, the recruits are more highly touted than any era since the Smithson reign, but I do constantly remind myself that they are YOUNG. . I temper my excitement knowing that having such a young team will require considerable growing pains. I realize that there is only one FVV, one RB, one TC, one LS. I hope that the current roster can emulate the success these players and teams had in the past, but I also accept that its not immediate. Progression is what I look for, while also accepting that there will probably be another OU type game(s) in this season. When you get punched in the mouth, you can lay on the ground crying, run away, or get back up and start swinging. They are young enough they might not know how to fight yet, but I'm optimistic they have the talent to figure it out.

While WSU doesn't recruit at the same level as Kentucky, historically, their very young teams have stumbled early in the year only to put together a very cohesive team by tournament time. I'm not saying that this team will make it to the tournament, but the team we saw Saturday will not be the team we watch in March.

[Aargh]

Last year there was no "edge". May have been at the beginning of the season, but there were some personnel issues that took whatever edge may have been there and may have contributed to some locker room issues. McDuffie probably never was and never can be a true "Play Angry" type of player. He can certainly be a major contributor on a "Play Angry" team if he's surrounded by players of that type who have "the edge".

This year's crop of newcomers haven't been here long enough to have developed an edge. They are still being honed. Unfortunately we have to play them before they have been sharpened. So, this year, I can't agree that the team has "lost" their edge. They don't have one, but it's not because it's been "lost". You can't lose what has never been found.

At this stage of his career, VanVleet was a some time sub who did nothing but play not to make mistakes. This year's newcomers don't have that luxury. At this stage of his career, Cotton probably couldn't shoot any better than a lot of guys getting a lot of minutes this year. If this team is no better in February than they are in early December, then we're in trouble next year as well.

In my opinion, this team has overachieved a few times, underachieved a few times, and probably played to their actual level a few times. Expectations have to be lowered when there are this many first-year D1 players on the floor.

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#53.5
1989 commented
23 minutes ago
All those things you just mentioned as being measurable- desperate, hungry, killer instinct- are literally not measurable. But that is not going to be my main point here, just an aside.

If you think “play angry” as a style of play or team identify is something special than you have to think that it’s also something that can’t be easily learned. If it could be adopted so easily than how special is it? Also, we got freshman on the record saying they didn’t even know what was and wasn’t a foul coming into college basketball so how the hell do you expect those same guys to pick up on the play angry way of life in just 8 games.

I’m confused by your mindset of this years team. Do you genuinely not understand that most of what you see now is most likely not what you are going to see in the future? Good freshman typically get better. Whatever you see lacking is likely going to improve. The terrible play right now was predictable. The bright future ahead of us is just as predictable. Chillax, fam.




"All those things you just mentioned as being measurable- desperate, hungry, killer instinct- are literally not measurable."

-They actually are (obviously not quantitatively). In fact they were so measurable that TV commentators used to develop point-by-point summaries prior to our games. Remember Mark Adams "Play Angry Points?" You almost sound as if you don't know what Play Angry basketball is. I'm assuming you've been watching Shocker basketball regularly for some time? The tenacity on defense is easy to spot.

"If you think “play angry” as a style of play or team identify is something special than you have to think that it’s also something that can’t be easily learned."

-Of course it's easily learned. It's a mindset. It's not a book of plays. It's hunger, drive, competitiveness. I believe that Shocker players who totally sold out for Play Angry style of basketball were ready to die on the court. Evan Wessel comes to mind. He used to wrap his body up before games to prepare for the dives to the floor. Remember how he used to talk about bruises on top of bruises under his wraps? This is a warrior mentality. Knowledge doesn't even enter into the equation. This is not about execution it is pure effort. Players run faster, they cut harder, they fly to the floor for loose balls without thinking, they crash the boards with little regard for their safety. Just look at Ron Baker and how he's almost killed himself in the NBA going up against giants. Ron Plays Angry - Ron has no fear.

You may ask how one gets a player to "Play Angry". Well, it's pretty simple. Gregg Marshall used to sit them on the bench the second he saw their effort wane. If it happened often in games or practice the player never saw the floor. Eventually they transferred out. Marshall didn't care about anything but 110% effort until your shift was finished. I doubt he even looked at the offensive side of the court back in those days. He wanted loose balls, rebounds, and blood. He was kind of like Randy Smithson in a way except way better at recruiting, relationship building, and sobriety.

"I’m confused..."

-I'll just stop you right there. You are clearly confused about Play Angry and the entire premise behind me starting this thread. I am speaking NOTHING of this year's inexperience or how well they may execute in 5 months. I am talking about Play Angry basketball from November 2017 to the current date. It has been largely missing from most of our games. The toughness, the poise, the relentlessness, the defense, the aggression on the boards, the aggression to protect the rim, everything. There used to be a time when no less than 3 Shockers would go for the block damn near every chance they would get. The opponent knew that if they went to the rack, they were leaving with a memento. Every inch of that floor was challenged on defense. The current players and a lot of last year's players couldn't carry the Play Angry Shocker's jock straps.

And I'll say something about Landry while I'm at it. His defense sucked. He's even getting ridiculed in the NBA for being a weak defender and that's saying something. I don't know if we are losing our identity on purpose or if it's by design.

As far as me relaxing? I'm fine, just a little sad. Never thought I would see us reach the lows of Saturday. I don't know if Gregg Marshall's 2007-08 team would have lost by 32 on Saturday. They might have. The 2008-09 team likely wouldn't though. That year they played #21 Georgetown to 8 pts., #5 Michigan State to 8 pts., and Texas Tech to 3 pts. Play Angry basketball is known for keeping scores close even when we are overmatched.

Toure' Murry, Garrett Stutz, and David Kyles, were freshmen on that team. 6'6 senior forward Ramon Clemente was our modern-day Markis McDuffie.

Either we played God's team on Saturday or we weren't playing Angry. I'll let the experts on here decide.


T


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[1989]

- They are not measurable. Pulling a random measuring scale out of your backside, like Mark Adams did, doesn’t all of a sudden make something measurable. I know what “play angry” is. Again, your overuse of it has made it corny. Being able to easily spot something doesn’t make it measurable.

- All those things your proclaimed to be easily learned are things that freshman are notoriously bad at. They think they are doing those things but they aren’t because they haven’t learned yet what tenacity, hunger, drive, and competitiveness means for this level. You expressed that you don’t think I know what play angry is. Well I’m starting to think that you don’t know what a freshman is.

- “I am speaking NOTHING of this year's inexperience or how well they may execute in 5 months.” This line right here from you is your problem. You should be speaking of this years inexperience because that is largely the reason why this team lacks all of the things you say it is missing.

[Kung Wu]

Sorry, but freshmen and newcomers can't "lose" an edge they never had. Unless you are a freak, you don't walk into a program having an edge as a freshman or a JuCo player in the early season. You just keep your mouth shut and go through the paces learning a Division 1 college system for the very first time, until your confidence builds. Then, if you are lucky enough to have a coach that can pull the edge out of you, you bloom.

I'm thankful HC3GM can handle rebuilding and adversity head on. There's a lot of season left to watch our kids bloom -- will be interesting to see which ones do, and which ones don't. I think we have the gist of that already, but some kids/positions obviously take longer to develop.

[C0|dB|00ded]

"The Edge" (Play Angry) was gone shortly after last season began and hasn't been back on a consistent basis since. We play like sissies and then the coach sits at the press table looking and acting mystified. This is reality.

I thought the hiring of his ex-PG from Winthrop and Jans's assistant would bring back an immediate sense of urgency but it hasn't. The newcomers this year will undoubtedly get better as the season wears on but if they aren't playing like hardened warriors by now after a summer of practice and a quarter of live games completed...

Sure we're going to win more games this year and even look good doing it but Play Angry basketball is not about looking good, it's a mentality, an energy that propels the Shockers to wins regardless if they are executing or not. It's the ability to use physical force/effort to change the tide of the game and impose our will.

Last year our defense was miserable, this year our defense is slightly less miserable and our rebounding is horrific. Those aspects of the game are instilled with a little careful instruction and a lot of threats and punishment. They do not require Freshmen to become Sophomores. Marshall had the Shockers Playing Angry within a couple games of arriving at Wichita. We didn't win many games that first year and I criticized him greatly for that but I hadn't developed a taste for Play Angry basketball at that point and all I could see was a parade of jacked up 3-balls with no semblance of organized offense. By year two he was keeping the margin under 10 against schools like #5 Michigan State as was already mentioned.

Many centuries from now great Shocker historians will attribute Saturday's loss to youth and inexperience, but the blowout will be attributed to a lack of mental effort and proper management.

This will be my last comments on this thread.


T


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[ShockCrazy]

Seems success breeds soft fans. Of course, one only had to look up I-35 to know that.

[Slalomshocker]

Both sides of the argument here are right. Players are young and can't be expected to play perfect. Coach also is at fault. He signed off on the recruits, the size of the class and also hires his assistants. There have been several misses in those categories recently.

Also, Coach is responsible for teaching kids to run the system. Has anyone seen this team run an offensive set? All I've seen is a guard standing at the top of the key dribbling looking around for someone to move, but nobody moves. Nobody is cutting with a purpose, very few of the dribbles are to get anywhere, the screen game is very weak. Someone already mentioned the complete refusal of our guards to make an entry pass to the posts. Offense has never been GGG's strong suit... but dang, we should at least require guys to run SOMETHING. Defensively it will come with time, but offensively there has to be something. SHJ and MM going playground mode isn't going to cut it.

As far as the program sliding... Yes, we have some young talent in Stevenson, Dennis, Burton and I think Udeze. Are those guys truly head and shoulders better than what UCONN, Houston, Cincy or Memphis are bringing in? We all lament losing Lomax to Memphis... he was our 'best' recruit (most needed for sure). Memphis is signing the hell out of talent right now with Penny. We have to see progress from our guys and we cannot miss on the recruiting trail at the rate we have been the last few years. This league is legit, with legit coaches and some top level programs. I don't believe it is time to panic...but the margin for error is quite slim in our current neighborhood. This program earned the right to be here, now it has to prove it can stay.

[proshox]

Good points- where do we stack up in next year's American? Is the American going to be at least a 4-5 bid league?

I assume Cincinnati, Houston, UCONN, and Memphis all have legit shots of being in the 2020 NCAA Tournament.