We've lost our edge

[ShockerFever]

Don't think this is an over reaction. Next year will be huge and WSU will still have a very young team.

Of course you don't think it is.

Why in the world are you here during a KU basketball game?

[shoxlax]

Don't think this is an over reaction. Next year will be huge and WSU will still have a very young team.

You two seem to be quick to defend each other’s posts.

[proshox]

I don’t associate with anybody in Crestway.

[C0|dB|00ded]

The program is sliding backwards... will it snowball?

Next year is going to be HUGE for the long term outlook...the magic days will be long gone history to recruits looking for NCAA success.

WSU in the MVC was the equivalent of Koch Industries finding an inefficiency in a market then exploiting the living hell out of it. We got 21 games a year against respectable but completely overmatched competition. This allowed us to become a well oiled, confident, sometimes cocky machine while moving up the polls. Those days are over.


Now we have to do it on a level playing field. Whether people like it or not, kicking ass year/in & year/out is much harder now. Not impossible, more fun to watch, but harder nonetheles.

The program has slid backwards with respect to our national reputation for sure. We are still scheduling like a major power though and are in an improved conference. We have a better support system to keep from slipping too fast but we've got to get back into the top 25 ASAP. Right now that seems like a million miles away.

I define an edge as an advantage. Our advantage with HCGM has been his ability to get kids to run through walls for him. He's been asked by the national media ad nauseam how he has been able to get the Shockers to play so hard. An answer was never given. Well, he always says, "I recruit good kids". I asked Heiar once how they get the players to try and kill each other during unsupervised scrimmages, only a smirk was returned. That essence is Play Angry and it's what has been missing from the program for the last two years. A 24/7 chip on your shoulder mentality where you are out to prove to the world that you belong. That theme resonated from the coaches down to the waterboys.

Like I said, we are a victim of our own success/riches. Everyone from the coaching staff down to the waterboys now know we belong.

Now we're starting not to...


T


...:cool:

[C0|dB|00ded]

I do have another theory that I don't like to think about very much and that is the level of importance Fred, Ron, Tekele, and Evan played on our magical seasons. I used to think it was 50/50 Marshall and the crew. What if it was really 25/75? How many times did HCGM say he didn't even need to coach when Fred was on the floor?

Spooky.


T


...:cool:

[N Crestway]

The theory that I don't like to think about is the presence of Chris Jans and how important he was for the great run. In two years he has rebuilt NMSU into something resembling the those Shocker teams.

[C0|dB|00ded]

There's that one but I've got to believe that most of what Jans learned came straight from Marshall. His coaching career spanned 16 seasons culminating with a 4 year stint at the Redturds. He wasn't on the fast track. I want to believe that Marshall can build more Jans's if he gets the right raw material.

That being said, I'd like to have Jans back immediately! :*(

I want Fred, Ron, and Tekele back too! :*(*****


T


...:cool:

[proshox]

A big piece is HCGM’s willingness to trust assistants. It takes time and we are starting over. This will get better as the season moves forward.

[ShockTalk]

@C0|dB|00ded, I'll continue our discussion from the previous page too here.

My point was, assuming both teams (UK and SH) were working hard, that good talent with experience can make up for great talent that's inexperienced. That's what happened today with SH beating UK.

WSU is a long, long ways from UK's talent and is even less experienced. OU has good talent (probably better than SH) and very experienced (more than SH). Assuming both teams were working hard, the chances for WSU were slim to keep it less than double digits to begin with, much less to win. We saw the Jekyll and Hyde of our team against Baylor. Today, on the road, it was much the same. We played a reasonable 1st half, horrible 2nd half. Of course, good experienced teams can make halftime adjustments much easier than a team that are doing all they can to just hang on in the 1st half. Sometimes, that inexperience without solid floor leadership can look like they're not trying. I just believe that's the case with this team.

[WuShocker2006]

Some of you are out of control. We are 8 games into a season with mostly new players, most of which are freshman. Slow your freaking roll. We haven't been in this territory before. Give it a little more time. 3G is still 3G.

[GreatWhiteBuffalo]

I agree. It's really hard to see through the suck that was Saturday. I keep telling people that there have been years where Final Four teams barely made the tourney because they were so bad early. I'm not saying WSU is a Final Four team or even a tourney team this year. I am saying there is reason for optimism...which will be battered a bit this season. I'm hoping that, come February, this team is stealing some games they shouldn't and competing in every game.

[shoxrox89]

This is a throw away season

[im4wsu]

This is a throw away season

Dare -- double dare -- you to say that to Marshall, to his face.

[Aargh]

This thread is a perfect symbol of the fallacy of expecting a top-3 AAC finish and being on the NCAA bubble with a team returning one player of any significance.

We, as fans, had several years to see this season on the horizon. There was a class of 6 guys moving through the system and there were only 3 guys on the roster that were in any kind of a position to replace those 6. Those 3 were McDuffie, Shamet, and Reaves. That meant that 3 of the top 6 rotation spots were going to be filled by first-year players. That may have worked in the MVC, but not at the levels where WSU fans want (and now expect) the Shox to compete.

Shamet has some great basketball IQ and could easily think that his NBA draft potential would evaporate if he were to play on this year's team, so he left. Anybody want to be Reaves seeing all the departures and then look at how badly you would want to play with what was left?

The big class and the massive changes in the coaching staff created a perfect storm to destroy Shocker basketball this year. 8 guys in the So class next year is a warning flag about the size of an aircraft carrier. Teddy Buckets won't be scoring at the rim if defenses don't have to guard the 3-point line

To maintain anything resembling the last several years, we should be putting 3 or 4 guys at or above McDuyffie's skill and BBIQ level on the court. There are none of that type of player on the roster. Maybe some of the young guys will get there, but they're far from that now - and now is when we need them.

The Jr class is JuCo's and we normally don't expect a lot of production from JuCo's until second semester. The So class is Midtgaard. Even without Shamet and Reaves leaving, the So and Jr classes this year would have had only 2 productive players. That's a formula for disaster for a team that likes to play 9 deep.

Since the F4 we've gotten McDuffie and Shamet. We got Reaves because no one else really wanted the always injured small town player. We got Morris because he was seen as a project that would use 4 or 5 years of scholarships for one or two years of production. We also got a couple of athletic guys (Brown and Kelly) who couldn't (or at least didn't - it seems they can make baskets in Europe this year) put the ball in the basket.

The 2020 recruiting class better be mighty fine. We need some upgrades. The upgrades need to be better than the transfer-outs that they replace. That hasn't really been the pattern very often.

[C0|dB|00ded]

I can't speak for others but this isn't a single-game meltdown for me. I saw some really weird and unfamiliar **** at the start of last season too and it persisted throughout the year. I witnessed a kind of defense (poor) as well as a lack of toughness foreign to previous Marshall squads. This has been going on for two years now. I just chose this game to vent because... why not? A clear pattern has formed.

Last year we won a lot of games, this year we won't win a lot but both seasons are uncomfortably similar in many respects. Last year Marshall's tone after poor performances was one of resignation rather than the typical outrage and promises of hell to pay. I was shocked by this new kindler, gentler tone and even floated a theory on the AAC board that he was attempting to change the culture of Shocker basketball to a more offensive orientated style for the AAC.

My only other theory (which was going to remain close to the vest) was that Marshall was getting... ummm... soft. I did offer up that his assistants were likely no help either sitting on the bench with their thumbs up their butts. Now I hear after yesterday's game Marshall was issuing threats of immediately recruiting for players that could shoot? I have no problem threatening death by line drills but you're going to motivate young freshman by telling them at the start of the year they're going to get replaced if they don't produce? That's not strategic nor helpful IMO. These kids need to be broken down and built back up the Marshall way but they don't need to hear that the coach doesn't have their back.


T


...:cool:

[ShockerFever]

Slippery slope to mediocrity?

We were a 4 seed in the tourney last year, was a basket away from a conference title, 25+ wins, and ranked around the Top 10 all year.

You're acting like we've been trending downward for years.

What a joke. You're worse than CBB.

[proshox]

Like i said, this year doesn’t matter. Next year does. I expect it to work out

[proshox]

Also, mediocre may be a compliment based on the play since being up 42-9 vs. Baylor.

[ShockerFever]

we should be putting 3 or 4 guys at or above McDuyffie's skill and BBIQ level on the court. There are none of that type of player on the roster. Maybe some of the young guys will get there, but they're far from that now - and now is when we need them.y replace. That hasn't really been the pattern very often.

Um, MM doesn't have the greatest BBIQ level out there so you're setting the bar pretty low. We have a few players now that are on par, if not, better in that department at the moment and will definitely improve as the years go on.

[ShockingButTrue]

The theory that I don't like to think about is the presence of Chris Jans and how important he was for the great run. In two years he has rebuilt NMSU into something resembling the those Shocker teams.

Very important during the great run for sure.

But, if you'll recall, for one of the seminal wins on that great run, and that would be against the Chickens, Jans wasn't even a part of the Shocker coaching staff.

[N Crestway]

But WSU still had Fred VanFleet, Ron Baker, Tekele Cotton, and Evan Wessel in the backcourt. Jans was at WSU from 2007 to 2017 with an interim at Bowling Green, 2014-2015. Jans helped to coach up those kids...just one year removed he was probably still having an impact on the team.

[ShockerFever]

Very important during the great run for sure.

But, if you'll recall, for one of the seminal wins on that great run, and that would be against the Chickens, Jans wasn't even a part of the Shocker coaching staff.

Great point. Also, last year, if you recall, we lucked our way into 25+ wins, a near conference title, and a 4 seed in the NCAA's without his services as well.

[WstateU]

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