This Program Has Officially Fallen

[shockball]

Thank you shocker 3.

[Show_Me_the_Wulah]

How many FIRST STRIKE PITCHES are these guys going to look at only to swing at a curve ball in the dirt on there second pitch.

the way the Kstate pitchers were walking batters yesterday, I don't necessarily blame them.

[SB Shock]

I have been a "reader" here for many years, and although I rarely post, I thought I would give my .02 on what is going on with WSU Baseball.
While I agree to a point with a lot of the posts about the dead ball, and the bat rules, I feel there are 2 things that have caused us to be where we are at today.
#1) WSU created it's own monster in the 80's and 90's with facility upgrades. Every kid growing up who played competitive baseball in the midwest in the early-mid 80's wanted to go play at WSU. They had the wins, facilities, fan support, coaching, and several players going into MLB. For several years, WSU had the pick of who they wanted from Kansas or Oklahoma. Then, other schools in the midwest began to realize that Men's Baseball can be a money generating sport. They started upgrading,l and pumping money into those programs. These schools began winning games, and thus stealing some of the "sure thing" kids WSU used to monopolize. There are several schools within a couple hundred miles of Wichita that have comparable stadiums and facilities. Combined with the fact that other schools have more of a "College Atmosphere" we loose out on some of those kids. So, by proving that baseball can be a $ producer, other schools copied the blueprint. Instead of getting the majority of kids we recruited, we now have to fight with the OU's, Nebraska's and such of the world. I feel like we loose more of those battles off the field than we win anymore.
2) The Ben Christensen incident. Before that, we were known as a tough, hard nosed team that would put their foot on your throat and never let up. I know it isn't the case, but it seems like as a kid every time OSU came to play there was a fight. We got a certain type of kid who was tough mentaly and physically and also extremely talented. For several years after Christensen, I felt as if many teams really pushed us into a corner, knowing that we wouldn't, and couldn't "fight" back. When that culture invades your program, it is almost difficult to irradicate. I don't work in the program, so I can only say my opinion. I think Gene is looking for kids who are players 1st, and tough 2nd. I really think it used to be the other way around.
That being said, I really believe that the IPF will be the straw that will get more of the upper ier kids to choose WSU. It is an amazing facility, and really adds a lot to the program.
Again, this is just my opinion, and I am sure several of you will dissagree with it. I just felt like I wanted to ive my .02 as a lifelong fan of WSU.

I agree with your insight and are you bring two valid points. I can recall that opposing coaches since 1999 have said publically that WSU program has lost it's swagger.

[SB Shock]

How many FIRST STRIKE PITCHES are these guys going to look at only to swing at a curve ball in the dirt on there second pitch.

the way the Kstate pitchers were walking batters yesterday, I don't necessarily blame them.

that makes no sense. All the more reason to be looking for a certain pitch you can drive. There is one thing being patient, but you can't allow patience to steal your aggressiveness. If you get a dead red fastball down the middle on the first pitch- you have to punish the pitcher. This team is not doing it - past good WSU teams demoloshed pitchers who made mistakes.

[shocky]

I agree with both of you guys. The Ben Christensen incident was the beginning of the end our dominance. Up to that point we were unstoppable. That team was just incredible to watch and I was planning another trip to Omaha.

I really hope we can turn this thing around soon.

[Veritas]

Sully reported that HCGS and ACJT forgot their helmets and were sent back to the dugout to find one or get a replacement. Not a big deal really, but the equipment manager should be charged with an error. :)

K-State had a record crowd and are approaching their longest winning streak against WSU since 1949.

I predict their win streak against the Shox has reached its limit.

Step up fellas, dig deep, get pi$$ed, and kick some tail.
:goshocks:

[Shirley Schmidt]

I would certainly like to keep BK in the mix.

Why does Kemnitz get a pass in this discussion?

His pitchers are out there throwing like little girls.

JT and Gene are getting lots of constructive analysis Brent certainly deserves a portion of it.

I wish they would have stayed at OU.

[ShockTalk]

I would certainly like to keep BK in the mix.

Why does Kemnitz get a pass in this discussion?

His pitchers are out there throwing like little girls.

JT and Gene are getting lots of constructive analysis Brent certainly deserves a portion of it.

I wish they would have stayed at OU.

I don't think BK should get a pass, but WSUs problems starting 10 years ago was with the position players and their offensive production. Despite this offensive drop to average and below average college ball standards, our pitching staff has kept us as a viable, named program. I believe the recent drop in pitching is directly tied to the continued drop in offense. Fewer pitchers may be willing to come to WSU and fight an up hill battle every game due to a lack of run production. In our 8 losses, we've averaged just slightly better than 2 runs per game and several of these opposing pitchers came into our game with lackluster ERAs. Compound this problem with fewer quality arms coming into the program where the pen and mid-week pitching suffers most and we see the results. Now our fielding, base running, and gernal baseball fundamentals are breaking down. Very little of all these problems are something that BK directly controls.

[ShockTalk]

MizzouShockerFan - You make some valid points, but I'd like to point out a couple of itmes.

We're just not losing the recruiting battles to the OUs and Nebraskas, but the ORUs as well. We're barely competitive (or worse) with K St and KU, teams with no college baseball history.

Secondly, is the Ben Christensen issue. That was a decade ago. A quality, hard working coaching staff should be able to have overcome that by now. If it is indeed still dogging this program and driving the program down, then that is even more reason to clear the air, clean the slate, and begin a new era in Shocker baseball.

[shoxlax]

I would certainly like to keep BK in the mix.

Why does Kemnitz get a pass in this discussion?

His pitchers are out there throwing like little girls.

JT and Gene are getting lots of constructive analysis Brent certainly deserves a portion of it.

I wish they would have stayed at OU.

Hitting is a ten year downward trend.

Pitching, especially the bullpen, is a two year downward trend.

Lack of confidence in our catcher's defense may have something to do with it. Weber and Muich were vacuums back there.

We do seem to have more than our share of arm injuries, which is weird considering how much we worry about overuse.

[Veritas]

To BCSCat's point though, the inclusion of the Texas teams into the Big 8 has resulted in a lot more money available for K-State and KU and highlighted their need to compete. Thus both K-State and KU have increased their spending and upgraded their facilites for baseball. Both schools have good solid teams this year.

I think HCGS saw this coming and has worked hard to upgrade facilities and pay his asst coaches more. He realizes that he is now competing head-to-head with the Big XII northern schools for players.

Where he HASN'T done a good job is holding his assistant coaches accountable. Has he ever terminated employment for one of his assistants? As I pointed out earlier..... Loyalty is one of his positive and negative attributes.

If he's not careful, he'll soon start losing players not only to Big XII northern schools, but also to ORU. He needs to make a leadership decision and get the program back on track with good solid fundamentals and aggressive ballplayers.

[t7017s]

http://www.goshockers.com//ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=7500&ATCLID=204868611

[1972Shocker]

As someone mentioned earlier this is definitely not a rebuilding year. Perhpas one of the more senior (10) laden teams we have had in a long-time.

I guess that in and of itself tells us something. In the glory days most of our studs were gone after their Junior years. So it seems pretty clear that the talent fall off is real. We could survive this in the past when our pitching staffs were deep and stingy. But the injuries to Hoch, Fleming and Muncrief pretty much decimated the bullpen and we did not have the quality depth to fall back on.

I doubt that this fall off in talent is attributable to any one thing, but the competition for talent is no doubt much tougher than it used to be. And it is not just with other D-1 programs as we are also competing against pro-ball which at times has put big dents in our reruiting classes.

Unfortunately, I don't think there are any easy answers. Perhaps tweaking the coaching staff (i.e. replacing JT) could help some, but the odds are that happening are about the same as the Shocks starting to use the sac bunt regularly. A wholesale change in the Coaching staff could do more harm than good. That is very hard to predict.

Hopefully, our glory days are not permanently behind us.

This is a difficult topic because of everything Gene and Brent have done for the Shocks and because the young men we are discussing are very fine young men as far as I can tell. Hopefully, they are just as disappointed or more disappointed than the Shocker fans are. Whether they have the capacity to do anything about it is unknown but appears to be somewhat doubtful.

Just venting. I have no answers. Only questions and frustration.

[ShockTalk]

To BCSCat's point though, the inclusion of the Texas teams into the Big 8 has resulted in a lot more money available for K-State and KU and highlighted their need to compete. Thus both K-State and KU have increased their spending and upgraded their facilites for baseball. Both schools have good solid teams this year.

I think HCGS saw this coming and has worked hard to upgrade facilities and pay his asst coaches more. He realizes that he is now competing head-to-head with the Big XII northern schools for players.

Where he HASN'T done a good job is holding his assistant coaches accountable. Has he ever terminated employment for one of his assistants? As I pointed out earlier..... Loyalty is one of his positive and negative attributes.

If he's not careful, he'll soon start losing players not only to Big XII northern schools, but also to ORU. He needs to make a leadership decision and get the program back on track with good solid fundamentals and aggressive ballplayers.

How do you know he isn't? And if not, maybe he should be looking more at some of the players they recruit. They seem to beat us regularly.

[ShockTalk]

1972Shocker - You make some good points that I'd like to add to.

"As someone mentioned earlier this is definitely not a rebuilding year. Perhaps one of the more senior (10) laden teams we have had in a long-time. I guess that in and of itself tells us something. In the glory days most of our studs were gone after their Junior years. So it seems pretty clear that the talent fall off is real."

No doubt there is more competition for players today and over the last 10 years. However, for most of those 10 years, our pitching staff has been very good to excellent, with good depth, compared to the average college staff. That should be the hardest part of baseball recruiting. So, why has it gotten so difficult (assuming recruiting is the problem) to get better position players? Having a quality pitching staff should be a big plus in recruiting top position players. For solid position player recruits, having a quality staff will lead to a surefire successful program when their bats and fielding are added. The opportunity to go to post season is high with the Shox. The facilities, particularly with our new addition, are certainly average to above and there is great fan support. So I ask again, why, as a team, has our position players been only average to below average compared to all college teams given these factors? Not just recently, but over the last 10-11 years. We're not getting paid to address and answer this problem, but someone is.

"Perhaps tweaking the coaching staff (i.e. replacing JT) could help some, but the odds of that happening are about the same as the Shocks starting to use the sac bunt regularly."

I think you may have answered the problem. At one time, we didn't need to sac bunt. However, our offensive personnel has changed from the past, but our tactics hasn't. Maybe who and how we recruit, what and how we teach, and our approach to the game as the type of players we have hasn't changed with them.

"Hopefully, our glory days are not permanently behind us."

That's the rub. We are not in the Big XII or PAC-10. We do not have warm weather in February. We are a northern, non-BCS school. We cannot afford to have these problems continue and stay competitive with the top 30 schools. Unless WSU becomes more pro-active in trying to solve the problems, this year's play may be as good as it's going to get.