This Program Has Officially Fallen

[SHOCKvalue]

The guy I'd like to find a spot on staff for is Travis Wyckoff. He seems to be a legit, up-and-coming coach.

And all signs point to BK not really being interested in D1 HC work. We all remember the Oklahoma fiasco. BK seems to be really comfortable as a permanent assistant/pitching coach.

[lostshocker]

This isn't something that's just happened in the last two years. Myself and some others pointed that out last year.

If you look back at the offensive stats for the team, you'll see that it started in 2000. In the last decade, 2004 was our best offensive year: .324 avg, 78 HR, 482 RBI, and 1125 Total Bases, were the best for that period with only 387 SO . Now let's put that in perspective.

In 1999 we hit .328 and that was the lowest in the previous 5 year period. Only ONCE (starting in 1978), prior to 2000, did a team bat below .300 and only two more times below .310. In the last 10 years, 3 below .300 and 3 more below .310.

From 1990-99, in a comparible number of games to 2000-2009, the Shox averaged 73.5 HRs compared to 50.1 this decade.

Only 3 times prior to 2000 did the Shox have less than 482 RBIs. Two of those were in the 1990s in which we averaged 546 RBIs. During the 2000s, we averaged 422. You'll see the same trend in Total Bases.

In the 1990s, we had a lot of free swingers going for the fences, yet only 3 times did we have more than 400 SO. In an era with a lack of power, the 2000s, the Shox have top that mark 6 times.

Before anyone says it, last year someone on here put up a graph that showed college baseball offensive stats did go up and down over the last 30 + years, but the general numbers have remained basically the same. In other words, we used to be better than average, now we are below average.

My concern was this: A continuing of poor offensive numbers would sooner or later result in a lower of our pitching quality. Yes, BK is here, but when faced with the prospect of having to pitch near perfection against better teams all the time just to get a loss or a no decision, that losses it luster. Look at our pen and look at our mid-week starters. Has the lack of offense started to affect our pitching?

One thing we could hang our hat on during the 2000s was our defense. This year .... at the rate it's going, it could be the worst all-time since 1978.

As a northern mid-major school, this trend cannot continue. If it does, we may lose, and never get back, that great Shocker baseball tradition.

part of the decline can be attributed to the rule changes regarding bat diameter and material used to deaden the ball so it didnt rocket off the bat as much. that doesnt excuse why they dropped below national averages.

may i ask where you got your figures from? i'd like to see the walk totals and OBP.

[ShockTalk]

Loren Hibbs has been at UNC-Charlotte since 1993, and been to the NCAA Tournament a whole 4 times in that span.

Color me unimpressed. Gene would have to get really bad before that resume would seem enticing.

Agreed. I love former Shockers and everything, but he would not be a qualified candidate.

I've gone to a lot of ballgames over the years and followed the Shox closely, but outside of the Shox, I couldn't name you more than a handful of head coaches, particularly up and comers. Unlke college basketball, I just don't follow it outside the Shocker world.

I would just like to have Wyckoff and/or Hooper involved. I'd like to see Hooper in JT's spot now!

[ShockerFever]

Loren Hibbs has been at UNC-Charlotte since 1993, and been to the NCAA Tournament a whole 4 times in that span.

Color me unimpressed. Gene would have to get really bad before that resume would seem enticing.

Agreed. I love former Shockers and everything, but he would not be a qualified candidate.

I've gone to a lot of ballgames over the years and followed the Shox closely, but outside of the Shox, I couldn't name you more than a handful of head coaches, particularly up and comers. Unlke college basketball, I just don't follow it outside the Shocker world.

I would just like to have Wyckoff and/or Hooper involved. I'd like to see Hooper in JT's spot now!

It definitely can't get any worse with Hoop. I would go for him over the present in a heartbeat.

[shocker3]

I just got home from the game and I am a little disappointed on how quickly you guys are ready to give up on this team and the coaches.

I think we shouldn't over react. I went over to warren nolan to check our rpi and the rpis of our opponents.

We have played a pretty tough schedule so far with a lot of tough games on the road. A 14-8 record (.636 winning percentage) isn't that bad.

A breakdown of our record by our opponents rpi:

RPI TOP 25- 0-3 (all 3 games on the road)
RPI 26 TO 50- 2-2 (only 1 home game of the 4)
PRI 51 TO 100- 2-2 (all 4 games away from home)

RPI 101 TO 150: 2-1
PRI 151 TO 200: 3-0
RPI 200 and worse: 5-0

The bottom line is that we have played 11 games (4-7) against the rpi top 100 and only one of them has been at home.

Our only loss outside the top 100 is one loss to FLORIDA GULF COAST (#142). And I have a feeling that by the end of the season that will also look like a much better loss (and 2 wins).

If our basketball team played half of their first 22 games against the rpi top 100 and only played one of those games at home, I think we would be estatic with a 14-8 overall record.

Right now our rpi is 67 (not great but far from horrible). Our two best wins are against Washington St. #36 and Long Beach St. #42 and our worst loss is against Florida Gulf Coast #142.

Right now we don't have any losses that should hurt us at the end of the season (I think FCG will be much better than 142 by then). Of course that could change after this weekend if we lose to UE. (Although UE's rpi isn't that bad right now at 127- but I expect that it will be worse by the end of the season).

Do I wish we were doing better, yes. I always want us to win and I want to go to Omaha every year. But I dont think we should overreact to our start . We are having far from a horrible season. In fact, we are still ranked #30 in the country.

Baseball is a long season. This team has played some very good teams on the road so far and has picked up a couple of good wins. Hopefully we will pick up a few more before the season is over. :wsu_posters:

[Veritas]

Shocker3, I believe it is the lack of fundamentals especially with hitting, fielding, and errors that frustrate a lot of people.

As far as changes being made...
I want Gene to stay and take over the #1 spot for wins. In the mean time, BK is one of if not the best college pitching coach out there. Hopefully, he stays. JT needs to be replaced with an up and comer that will eventually take over for Gene when he retires in 3-5 years. Gene needs to start thinking about his legacy, winning another National Championship, and working on his replacement.
Shocker baseball IS GS, and I don't want to see him ride off into the sunset with his head hangin'.

As much as I'm thankful for JT's overall contributions to Shocker baseball, I believe JT is a very weak link. I keep hoping he'll prove me wrong.

edit: Also Shocker3, I think most fans including me are used to seeing WSU as the top northern program. Losing to teams such as K-State or ORU the past 2-3 years is a little frustrating. Let's hope the Shox beat them in the playoffs when it matters most.

[Ta town]

I just got home from the game and I am a little disappointed on how quickly you guys are ready to give up on this team and the coaches.

I think we shouldn't over react. I went over to warren nolan to check our rpi and the rpis of our opponents.

We have played a pretty tough schedule so far with a lot of tough games on the road. A 14-8 record (.636 winning percentage) isn't that bad.

A breakdown of our record by our opponents rpi:

RPI TOP 25- 0-3 (all 3 games on the road)
RPI 26 TO 50- 2-2 (only 1 home game of the 4)
PRI 51 TO 100- 2-2 (all 4 games away from home)

RPI 101 TO 150: 2-1
PRI 151 TO 200: 3-0
RPI 200 and worse: 5-0

The bottom line is that we have played 11 games (4-7) against the rpi top 100 and only one of them has been at home.

Our only loss outside the top 100 is one loss to FLORIDA GULF COAST (#142). And I have a feeling that by the end of the season that will also look like a much better loss (and 2 wins).

If our basketball team played half of their first 22 games against the rpi top 100 and only played one of those games at home, I think we would be estatic with a 14-8 overall record.

Right now our rpi is 67 (not great but far from horrible). Our two best wins are against Washington St. #36 and Long Beach St. #42 and our worst loss is against Florida Gulf Coast #142.

Right now we don't have any losses that should hurt us at the end of the season (I think FCG will be much better than 142 by then). Of course that could change after this weekend if we lose to UE. (Although UE's rpi isn't that bad right now at 127- but I expect that it will be worse by the end of the season).

Do I wish we were doing better, yes. I always want us to win and I want to go to Omaha every year. But I dont think we should overreact to our start . We are having far from a horrible season. In fact, we are still ranked #30 in the country.

Baseball is a long season. This team has played some very good teams on the road so far and has picked up a couple of good wins. Hopefully we will pick up a few more before the season is over. :wsu_posters:

Oh this helps..........wait RPI has nothing to do with hitting and walking batters, and error out the rear.

[Hill Sitter]

Thanks Shocker3 for the objectivity and reason.

[ShoxJ32]

Where's Wedge?
:cry:

[sandyrains]

Wow all I did is pray for rain and I got called stupid.

[sandyrains]

How many FIRST STRIKE PITCHES are these guys going to look at only to swing at a curve ball in the dirt on there second pitch.

[Shocker85]

Wow all I did is pray for rain and I got called stupid.

Hoping for a rainout is still stupid. Why schedule any games at all? - that way you NEVER lose.

I'm sure you'll be satisfied when the Shox are drubbing Rogers State.

--'85.

[SB Shock]

Those who are wanting JT ran off - it is not going to happen.

2nd I am not sure I buy into the theory that it is coaching is why thus team can't hit. IMO it is recruiting. It is clear that to me at least for whatever reason wsu is not bringing in quality depth of pitchers and all-Americans hitters.

2nd theory of change in bats is the cause in decline in wsu hitting doesn't wash either. The rule was applied across baseball, not just on wsu.

Wsu no longer reloads but is now in the rebuilding mode. Which means disappointed fans for the most part

[ShockTalk]

Those who are wanting JT ran off - it is not going to happen.

2nd I am not sure I buy into the theory that it is coaching is why thus team can't hit. IMO it is recruiting. It is clear that to me at least for whatever reason wsu is not bringing in quality depth of pitchers and all-Americans hitters.

2nd theory of change in bats is the cause in decline in wsu hitting doesn't wash either. The rule was applied across baseball, not just on wsu.

Wsu no longer reloads but is now in the rebuilding mode. Which means disappointed fans for the most part

Offensively, we've been rebuilding since 2004. This team should not be considered a rebuilding team with the number of Juniors and Seniors (many red-shirt J and S) playing.

shocker3: Your RPI thing doesn't wash. Not only us, but Gene should consider the Shox a year-in, year-out top 25 team. If so, you must do better than 4-4 with the teams from 25-100 RPI and win at least one out of 3 on the road to top 25 RPI teams. By the way, we're not just losing to these teams, we're getting hammered. I think our losses have been by a 19-76 run margin. That's nuts!

[MizzouShockerFan]

I have been a "reader" here for many years, and although I rarely post, I thought I would give my .02 on what is going on with WSU Baseball.
While I agree to a point with a lot of the posts about the dead ball, and the bat rules, I feel there are 2 things that have caused us to be where we are at today.
#1) WSU created it's own monster in the 80's and 90's with facility upgrades. Every kid growing up who played competitive baseball in the midwest in the early-mid 80's wanted to go play at WSU. They had the wins, facilities, fan support, coaching, and several players going into MLB. For several years, WSU had the pick of who they wanted from Kansas or Oklahoma. Then, other schools in the midwest began to realize that Men's Baseball can be a money generating sport. They started upgrading,l and pumping money into those programs. These schools began winning games, and thus stealing some of the "sure thing" kids WSU used to monopolize. There are several schools within a couple hundred miles of Wichita that have comparable stadiums and facilities. Combined with the fact that other schools have more of a "College Atmosphere" we loose out on some of those kids. So, by proving that baseball can be a $ producer, other schools copied the blueprint. Instead of getting the majority of kids we recruited, we now have to fight with the OU's, Nebraska's and such of the world. I feel like we loose more of those battles off the field than we win anymore.
2) The Ben Christensen incident. Before that, we were known as a tough, hard nosed team that would put their foot on your throat and never let up. I know it isn't the case, but it seems like as a kid every time OSU came to play there was a fight. We got a certain type of kid who was tough mentaly and physically and also extremely talented. For several years after Christensen, I felt as if many teams really pushed us into a corner, knowing that we wouldn't, and couldn't "fight" back. When that culture invades your program, it is almost difficult to irradicate. I don't work in the program, so I can only say my opinion. I think Gene is looking for kids who are players 1st, and tough 2nd. I really think it used to be the other way around.
That being said, I really believe that the IPF will be the straw that will get more of the upper ier kids to choose WSU. It is an amazing facility, and really adds a lot to the program.
Again, this is just my opinion, and I am sure several of you will dissagree with it. I just felt like I wanted to ive my .02 as a lifelong fan of WSU.