Game 3 Indiana state v. WSU

[ddog]

This all comes down to this team is not good. Will not be good any time soon, and it appears from TV interviews that the coaches have given up on them. So this is a recipe for disaster and will not get any better as long as all the pieces are in place next year.

The team has been depressing to watch this year, mostly because they have beaten themselves more than any of the opposition they have played. That being said, this forum is more frustrating than watching the team play. 2 Super Regional appearances in a row, and all of the sudden after 32 years of excellence, WE SUCK and need to make wholesale changes or we will fall into college baseball irrelevance.

2 years ago when I started to read this forum and Hays was the leader and kept us informed of the team, it was full of optimism, now it seems as if nothing bad can be said, nothing will be said at all.. I love the fact that everyone jumps on KC's bandwagon in almost giddy anticipation of his prediction being achieved in hopes that it will create some wholesale changes to the program. I hate to be the bearer of bad news to all the naysayers, but there will be no changes to the coaching staff, as there shouldn't be unless 10 decides it upon himself. With the indoor facility going up, that will not happen.

We all like to "what if" and I am no different, but I still believe the talent is good enough to win, but the "what ifs" of Hoch, Fleming, Muncrief, Coleman, Watkins, and a healthy Kevin Hall would have made this team much much better. There is still a hope that the Valley tourn is at home, and the Valley is not that good, and we are starting to see some life out of a few hitters (even though it has been minimal) that they can put together 4 wins and at least make a regional somewhere. Small pipe dream, but I prefer to look at the glass half full just to irritate everyone else on the board.

Here is to the hope that "85", Rosewood, and T7017 can keep some resemblence of positive vibe going enough to at least tolerate the forum for the rest of the year. I will be watching, but have now spoken my peace and will not be back to the delight of many I am sure.

[SubGod22]

How can you blame anyone for being negative about the team at this point? They haven't given much reason to be optimistic. I admit I don't follow college baseball all that much but I've done even less this season. It's not worth me going out of my way and spending time on it. I can only imagine what it's like for those on here who invest a lot more time and energy to the program. Venting is needed and deserved at this point.

Questioning the state of the program makes sense when you go from on the verge of a CWS trip to being a middle of the pack team in a BAD conference in one season. There's not a lot of sunshine with this program at this moment in time.

[rrshock]

This all comes down to this team is not good. Will not be good any time soon, and it appears from TV interviews that the coaches have given up on them. So this is a recipe for disaster and will not get any better as long as all the pieces are in place next year.

The team has been depressing to watch this year, mostly because they have beaten themselves more than any of the opposition they have played. That being said, this forum is more frustrating than watching the team play. 2 Super Regional appearances in a row, and all of the sudden after 32 years of excellence, WE SUCK and need to make wholesale changes or we will fall into college baseball irrelevance.

2 years ago when I started to read this forum and Hays was the leader and kept us informed of the team, it was full of optimism, now it seems as if nothing bad can be said, nothing will be said at all.. I love the fact that everyone jumps on KC's bandwagon in almost giddy anticipation of his prediction being achieved in hopes that it will create some wholesale changes to the program. I hate to be the bearer of bad news to all the naysayers, but there will be no changes to the coaching staff, as there shouldn't be unless 10 decides it upon himself. With the indoor facility going up, that will not happen.

We all like to "what if" and I am no different, but I still believe the talent is good enough to win, but the "what ifs" of Hoch, Fleming, Muncrief, Coleman, Watkins, and a healthy Kevin Hall would have made this team much much better. There is still a hope that the Valley tourn is at home, and the Valley is not that good, and we are starting to see some life out of a few hitters (even though it has been minimal) that they can put together 4 wins and at least make a regional somewhere. Small pipe dream, but I prefer to look at the glass half full just to irritate everyone else on the board.

Here is to the hope that "85", Rosewood, and T7017 can keep some resemblence of positive vibe going enough to at least tolerate the forum for the rest of the year. I will be watching, but have now spoken my peace and will not be back to the delight of many I am sure.

I would question anyone who isn't questioning what is going on. Yes the team is young. Yes they lost some guys to the draft. Blah, blah, blah. Every major program loses guys every year that they don't expect to lose. Alot of those programs have a tendency to be younger because of that. We can't be on here and say that WSU is unique in that it only happens to them. But alot of the other programs aren't affected nearly like WSU seems to be.

Even the posters that you listed have to be questioning things, even if they aren't posting them. It's human nature.

There have been alot of issues surrounding this program for quite some time. Yes, they went to a couple of Super Regionals, but there have been lots of questions even with those teams. And let's face it, this is not even a team that should be used in the same paragraph as those teams either, unless it's talking about how bad they are in comparison.

I know that Gene isn't going anywhere, but there will come a day when the AD doesn't have a choice anymore either. If fan support starts dwindling and the team continues to struggle in what Sub called "A bad conference" (Which I agree with), then Sexton will start having to look at his options.

This might just be an "off" year, but I personally don't think that is the case. Alot of people have been calling for Gene's job for some time now, even before he left and came back from Oklahoma. A couple of good seasons didn't even stop some of them from doing it.

[KC Shox]

This all comes down to this team is not good. Will not be good any time soon, and it appears from TV interviews that the coaches have given up on them. So this is a recipe for disaster and will not get any better as long as all the pieces are in place next year.

The team has been depressing to watch this year, mostly because they have beaten themselves more than any of the opposition they have played. That being said, this forum is more frustrating than watching the team play. 2 Super Regional appearances in a row, and all of the sudden after 32 years of excellence, WE SUCK and need to make wholesale changes or we will fall into college baseball irrelevance.

2 years ago when I started to read this forum and Hays was the leader and kept us informed of the team, it was full of optimism, now it seems as if nothing bad can be said, nothing will be said at all.. I love the fact that everyone jumps on KC's bandwagon in almost giddy anticipation of his prediction being achieved in hopes that it will create some wholesale changes to the program. I hate to be the bearer of bad news to all the naysayers, but there will be no changes to the coaching staff, as there shouldn't be unless 10 decides it upon himself. With the indoor facility going up, that will not happen.

We all like to "what if" and I am no different, but I still believe the talent is good enough to win, but the "what ifs" of Hoch, Fleming, Muncrief, Coleman, Watkins, and a healthy Kevin Hall would have made this team much much better. There is still a hope that the Valley tourn is at home, and the Valley is not that good, and we are starting to see some life out of a few hitters (even though it has been minimal) that they can put together 4 wins and at least make a regional somewhere. Small pipe dream, but I prefer to look at the glass half full just to irritate everyone else on the board.

Here is to the hope that "85", Rosewood, and T7017 can keep some resemblence of positive vibe going enough to at least tolerate the forum for the rest of the year. I will be watching, but have now spoken my peace and will not be back to the delight of many I am sure.

I do agree with you that those who are calling for the Gene and the rest of the coaching staff heads' are way off base. In defense for the majority on this board including myself, I do not think we suck. The team on the field this year sucks. We still have great coaches, great facilities which will get even better with some future upgrade projects and great fans. That spells 'winner' to me.

However, the majority of fans on SN are simply pointing out how bad THIS year's team is. We are not saying the state of the program is in a downhill slide into mediocrity, we are just saying how bad THIS team is. Sure, there are a few guys who think our run as a national power is over, but as a fan, they are entitled to their opinion.

I realize this goes against every fiber in your body. I'm sure you are one of those Yellow Colored Sunglasses wearing fan, but this team this year is what it is. Don't spin the what ifs like losing Coleman and Watkins to the draft, or injuries kiling this team, every team deals with this problem. This is not an isolated incident to Shocker nation. You can't just pick and choose where you decide to play the draft/injury card. Hell, I'd say we would have won the CWS had Evan Anudsen and Pete Kozma not signed to go pro, instead we made Super Regionals.

Suck it up this year and face the fact that this team is not only bad, they are terrible. We have some bright spots on this team however, Kelley, Lowell, Cooper, Grimes, O'Brien that point to a promising future, but given the state of the program currently, if we get hit in the draft again this year you better prepare yourself for a marginally better season next year.

If Micah Greene and Garrett Gould don't play for the Shox next season, we are in deep do-do.

P.S. My 27 game win prediction is looking better than ever. Didn't someone bet me some money?

[Snapshot9]

It does make you wonder when they perform so badly vs. the way they were advertised (talent-wise), who is evaluating them to begin with, and do they really know what they are doing? They, in real life, are not that talented. They are batting .272 for Pete's sake, which is the worst batting average for a WSU team for years and years.

Players that are talented don't make mistakes (errors), and this team has made a lot of them, whether they are young or not.

There is a big difference between having to 'tweek' a team as opposed to 'have to overhaul' a team.

[ShockerFever]

This all comes down to this team is not good. Will not be good any time soon, and it appears from TV interviews that the coaches have given up on them. So this is a recipe for disaster and will not get any better as long as all the pieces are in place next year.

The team has been depressing to watch this year, mostly because they have beaten themselves more than any of the opposition they have played. That being said, this forum is more frustrating than watching the team play. 2 Super Regional appearances in a row, and all of the sudden after 32 years of excellence, WE SUCK and need to make wholesale changes or we will fall into college baseball irrelevance.

2 years ago when I started to read this forum and Hays was the leader and kept us informed of the team, it was full of optimism, now it seems as if nothing bad can be said, nothing will be said at all.. I love the fact that everyone jumps on KC's bandwagon in almost giddy anticipation of his prediction being achieved in hopes that it will create some wholesale changes to the program. I hate to be the bearer of bad news to all the naysayers, but there will be no changes to the coaching staff, as there shouldn't be unless 10 decides it upon himself. With the indoor facility going up, that will not happen.

We all like to "what if" and I am no different, but I still believe the talent is good enough to win, but the "what ifs" of Hoch, Fleming, Muncrief, Coleman, Watkins, and a healthy Kevin Hall would have made this team much much better. There is still a hope that the Valley tourn is at home, and the Valley is not that good, and we are starting to see some life out of a few hitters (even though it has been minimal) that they can put together 4 wins and at least make a regional somewhere. Small pipe dream, but I prefer to look at the glass half full just to irritate everyone else on the board.

Here is to the hope that "85", Rosewood, and T7017 can keep some resemblence of positive vibe going enough to at least tolerate the forum for the rest of the year. I will be watching, but have now spoken my peace and will not be back to the delight of many I am sure.

Listing T as one of your admirers makes you lose some credibility..

You can look at it with a glass half full all the time, but you have to understand reality too. As KC said, this team does indeed suck this year. I agree that it's not on the coaching this year. What more could they have done with what was dealt with em? Some of the less informed fans on here seem to feel one bad year out of 30 = ejection. Ummm. No. If it's a trend, then I may follow with you.. One year isn't a trend. So it is that much I agree with you ddog.

However, you also must understand this is a no-spin zone to the rational folks around here. You can't deny that this team deserves some questioning and mild ribbings. But.. it was expected. This is a young and inexperienced team that hopefully, and IMO, should be better next year.

If realism is too much for ya, then ya I'd suggest ignoring me, KC, and a few other posters. If you think this 'negativity' is bad, you haven't seen NOTHING yet. Go to a discussion board outside of ShockerNet, and then you can play the negativity card with me.

[ShockerFever]

How can you blame anyone for being negative about the team at this point? They haven't given much reason to be optimistic. I admit I don't follow college baseball all that much but I've done even less this season. It's not worth me going out of my way and spending time on it. I can only imagine what it's like for those on here who invest a lot more time and energy to the program. Venting is needed and deserved at this point.

Questioning the state of the program makes sense when you go from on the verge of a CWS trip to being a middle of the pack team in a BAD conference in one season. There's not a lot of sunshine with this program at this moment in time.

Wow Sub. That seems awfully bandwagonish and a touch stereotypical in my opinion. Do you only follow baseball if they are doing good or something? Lame.

Why single out WSU baseball? You've followed the Royals since they've sucked to no end. You've followed our basketball team when they were the butt of all jokes two years ago. Why single out WSU baseball?

Please don't further comment on the program because you are not following it close enough to understand it and post something logical about it.

[SubGod22]

Wow Sub. That seems awfully bandwagonish and a touch stereotypical in my opinion. Do you only follow baseball if they are doing good or something? Lame.

There's nothing bandwagonish about it. I've never said or claimed to be intimate with the program and live and die with the results. NEVER. As a casual observer I'm not going out of my way to listen/watch a team with no heart that I'm not invested in. I've said that from day one with this program since I joined SN long ago.

Why single out WSU baseball? You've followed the Royals since they've sucked to no end. You've followed our basketball team when they were the butt of all jokes two years ago. Why single out WSU baseball?

As I've said before I'm not invested emotionally or whatever in college baseball. I've never claimed to be. I do have a passion for Shocker basketball and have been critical when it called for it. Same with the Royals. But those are two teams I've grown up watching and loving and supporting. I can't say the same about Shocker baseball. I've been to a handful of games my entire life and all those were free tickets.

Please don't further comment on the program because you are not following it close enough to understand it and post something logical about it.

Coming from someone who chimes in all the time with negative comments in basketball I'm surprised by this. Anybody can tell that this team is a MAJOR disappointment this year. I don't care how many people they lost to the draft, the staff should be prepared for that with recruiting. To fall this far this fast deserves some criticism and to question those who voice that is absurd. It's hard to justify this team being so poor right now. Youth plays a part but the coaching staff is supposed to recruit in order to keep that from happening.

Did you not criticize Turgeon when the team went from Sweet16 to crap? That was poor recruiting and or player development and he was cricized for it. And rightfully so. With the baseball teams long tradition and national recognition makes it that more painful for those who've invested in it emotionally. To pretend that things are fine and nobody screwed up is laughable and you pretending otherwise cracks me up.

[ShockerFever]

Coming from someone who chimes in all the time with negative comments in basketball I'm surprised by this.

What did that have to do with anything? I follow basketball closely so commenting on that situation has nothing to do with you commenting on the baseball situation you know little to nothing about.

Anybody can tell that this team is a MAJOR disappointment this year. I don't care how many people they lost to the draft, the staff should be prepared for that with recruiting. To fall this far this fast deserves some criticism and to question those who voice that is absurd. It's hard to justify this team being so poor right now. Youth plays a part but the coaching staff is supposed to recruit in order to keep that from happening.

A MAJOR disappointment? See, you're showing your ignorance right off the bat. This team was picked 3rd in the Valley for a reason. This was expected by most, maybe not quite to this degree, but it was expected. You calling this MAJOR without knowing the circumstances truly justifies my reason for calling you out.

It's one year out of 30, in which nearly an entire draft class was lost, 8 of 9 field starters were newly filled, players unexpectedly signing, unexpected bouts of injuries, etc... and you're acting like it's fallen off the map. In 1 year no less. You have too much Royal blood in a ya.

Did you not criticize Turgeon when the team went from Sweet16 to crap? That was poor recruiting and or player development and he was cricized for it. And rightfully so. With the baseball teams long tradition and national recognition makes it that more painful for those who've invested in it emotionally. To pretend that things are fine and nobody screwed up is laughable and you pretending otherwise cracks me up.

I don't think I did too badly, but if I did, I followed the program closely enough to be able to and knew somewhat what I was talking about.

Who's pretending things are fine? Things aren't fine. But things certainly aren't in freefall.. at least not yet. And you thinking so without any valid reasoning or justification makes it all the more obvious for you not to post in here. Especially when you've admitted you're nothing more than a casual fan.

[Shocker85]

Here is to the hope that "85", Rosewood, and T7017 can keep some resemblence of positive vibe going enough to at least tolerate the forum for the rest of the year. I will be watching, but have now spoken my peace and will not be back to the delight of many I am sure.

ddog,

Don't take everything negative posted as a direct assault on Shocker baseball. The variety of characters here on SN is what make it entertaining. Don't give me too much credit for being optimistic, either. Those who sit around me at the games know I've been pulling my hair out all season due to the extent of the mishaps, mistakes, and missteps by this team. More than a few times I've said to myself, "Why do I bother?" The reason I bother is for things like Friday's game. Tim Kelley was dominant and I wouldn't have missed that for the world. Or Sunday when we finally got a clutch hit from, of all people, Ryan Engrav. The final result was the same, but it was a bright spot from an uxpected source.

For the untrained eye, a few players are head and shoulders above the rest, but I assure you that even they can improve A LOT. On Saturday, 0-2 and 1-2 fastballs were served-up to hitters who had badly missed breaking balls. The batters got hits and made a tough jamb a disaster. Each and every player can improve - albiet some more than others.

Don't disparage KCShox and his prediction too much. Back in February, I had completed a game-by-game breakdown and was withing 3-4 games of his final W/L record. His delivery might sometimes be harsher than we want to hear, but he is proving out to be mostly correct.

I will say right now, that the hitters seem to be making more consistent contact than they were two weeks ago. The W/L results haven't been there, but perhaps if 2-3 more hitters can find their stroke the Shox can start scoring enough runs so the pitching staff doesn't have to throw a shut-out for the team to win.

Keep the faith, Gene and Brent will bring this program back with a vengance.

--'85.

[SubGod22]

What did that have to do with anything? I follow basketball closely so commenting on that situation has nothing to do with you commenting on the baseball situation you know little to nothing about.

All I've done is defend those who do follow the program and who were wrongfully called out by ddog. Then I gave some vague reference points to why they're justified.

A MAJOR disappointment? See, you're showing your ignorance right off the bat. This team was picked 3rd in the Valley for a reason. This was expected by most, maybe not quite to this degree, but it was expected. You calling this MAJOR without knowing the circumstances truly justifies my reason for calling you out.

They were picked third, but that's because of the failures to recruit/develop. Expectations surrounding the baseball program are higher than that and this season is a MAJOR disappointment. Again, a team with the kind of tradition as WSU shouldn't go to back to back regionals and then struggle as much as they have in a crap conference.

It's one year out of 30, in which nearly an entire draft class was lost, 8 of 9 field starters were newly filled, players unexpectedly signing, unexpected bouts of injuries, etc... and you're acting like it's fallen off the map. In 1 year no less. You have too much Royal blood in a ya.

Recruitment and Development. That shouldn't be such a tough issue with this program. Not to the point where they were aparently caught with their pants down and had no replacements.

Who's pretending things are fine? Things aren't fine. But things certainly aren't in freefall.. at least not yet. And you thinking so without any valid reasoning or justification makes it all the more obvious for you not to post in here. Especially when you've admitted you're nothing more than a casual fan.

And I never said anything about a freefall. My only response is that some seem to think there should be no negativity during a season as horrid as this one. There hasn't been a lot of good moments this season. Plenty of bad ones though.

You're giving my post WAY TOO MUCH credit as I would never pass that kind of judgement on a program I don't follow too closely. But those I know that do are quite disappointed and discouraged by what they've seen. All I did was defend those ddog was questioning as ddog seemed to think nothing negative should be said about the sorry state of affairs this season.

But to act like the coaches haven't failed recently in the recruitment/development phase of the game is laughable. I've never called for the head of anyone or claimed that the abyss is calling. Just that this season has sucked and people have a right to be upset with how things have turned out and should complain about the piss poor performances they've watched this season. If for nothing else but to vent.

[ShockerFever]

They were picked third, but that's because of the failures to recruit/develop. Expectations surrounding the baseball program are higher than that and this season is a MAJOR disappointment.

Are you kidding me? They've constantly had Top 25 recruiting classes. They just haven't been able to keep them from signing for the big bucks. Gene and Brent have consistently had some of the nation's best recruits. Is it their fault that they are losing them to hefty signing bonuses? See, you're talking out of your a$$ again.

Again, a team with the kind of tradition as WSU shouldn't go to back to back regionals and then struggle as much as they have in a crap conference.

Are you serious? I know you're a nub when it comes to college baseball (based on self-admittance), but let me give you a few mind-boggling examples of 'Not Everything is Gonna be Hunky-Dory Forever':
LSU - a national power that is routinely in Omaha, failed to even make the NCAA Tournament in 2006 and 2007 with .500-ish records.
Long Beach State - another national power, wiped off the map this year.
Oklahoma - another traditional power, goes .500 last year and barely makes the regionals.
I know it seems like WSU has the responsibility of making the NCAA's every year in their history, but there are gaps with even the strongest programs. No, we're not used to it, but that doesn't make us immune to it either... bad conference or not.
[quote]

Recruitment and Development. That shouldn't be such a tough issue with this program. Not to the point where they were aparently caught with their pants down and had no replacements.

Wow. See the above two posts. It's ONE EFFING YEAR IN WHICH THEY WERE PICKED THIRD IN A CRAPASS CONFERENCE. You tell me what should have been done differently or what could have been done to:

a.) keep Dusty Coleman
b.) prevent a pitching staff full of injuries
c.) keep high-profile recruits from signing bonuses

Maybe if you're answers are good enough, you can kick Gene out and take over.

And I never said anything about a freefall. My only response is that some seem to think there should be no negativity during a season as horrid as this one. There hasn't been a lot of good moments this season. Plenty of bad ones though.

I dunno.. saying there isn't a lot of sunshine with this program seems to be a pretty hopeless statement, freefall-esque if you will. That's just me.

But to act like the coaches haven't failed recently in the recruitment/development phase of the game is laughable. I've never called for the head of anyone or claimed that the abyss is calling. Just that this season has sucked and people have a right to be upset with how things have turned out and should complain about the piss poor performances they've watched this season. If for nothing else but to vent.

Wow. This is why you shouldn't comment here. You're clueless and you admitted as such.

Again, you're kind of an oxymoron in a sense. You're b*tching about the recruiting and development of the coaches and yet they were a back-to-back super regional team a year ago. How can that be if they're recruiting and development has sucked?

I think you're GIVING TOO MUCH CREDIT to one year of mediocre baseball. You need to either follow the sport a little more closely and then comment or don't even bother with your two cents at all. .. Well you can, you'll just be laughed at for not knowing anything.

Sorry, but you're out of your league, even for you, on this one.

[SubGod22]

Every point I've made has been said by those who do invest their time in baseball at the college level. The failure to recruit and develop wasn't based on the last two seasons results as much as it is those behind them. It's much like Turgeon in that he failed to recruit the quality he needed behind the teams that had success.

How much sunshine do you see from this years team? Most on here haven't seen a lot. I still don't see how that says freefall.

Apparently those programs you point to have failed in the same department. I'm not saying it never happens but it's a reason for what's happened and why people are justified in their complaining.

As far as recruits signing, that why you never stop recruiting and have backup plans. They know this is an issue and should be prepared when it happens.

Based on your comments about recruitment and development they could suck for 10 years straight and you could point back to successes. All I'm saying is they know what goes on and should have enough ready to at least compete at a better level than they are this year.

Maybe they've gotten a little too comfortable with what they had and didn't plan for what happened. But in college athletics you need to be ready for those things and have a plan in place for when they happen. Another reason you never stop recruiting. If they sign 5 guys out of HS that all go pro they should have people ready to replace them. Obviously maybe not quite at that level but good enough. And they should have 3 or 4 years of that so that when people do leave/not show up they're not caught with a team that has few components ready to play at a high level.

I still don't get how you just give into the draft of players as being plenty of reason for crappiness. It's one thing not to do as well as you just did, but to fall as hard as fast is hard to justify.

I have no doubt that things will get better in a few years. But there's a lot of negatives to be seen on the field this year. I've painfully watched a few of those and talked to others who've seen more. I feel sorry for them.

[ICT Ragman]

Basketball recruiting and baseball can't be compared - just two different sets of variables to deal with altogether. The draft hit us harder than we could have expected. We have had consistent top 15-25 ranked recruiting classes the last 2-3 years. Our top 3 relievers are on the shelf. I am not making excuses but stating the facts. An entire summer and fall of freshman getting better and maturing is something to look forward to for me.

As others have said, other national powers have gone through this. The fact we held the nation's longest consecutive streak of 40 game winning seasons is a testament to the program's unbelievable and sustained success and has spoiled a lot people, myself included, when a .500-esque season makes us feel this way. I remain optimistic.

[ShockerFever]

Thank you Ragman.

It's hard reasoning with a Royal fan.





And just to make one point about your ramble Sub, there's a bit of a difference between ONE year and TEN years.