Florida State fans, please read

[WuDrWu]

I think it would behoove Shocker fans to recognize that we have extended Musgrave and Shafer at times this year more than I ever remember doing before. It's a recognition, I think, by our coaches that when it comes to the post season, if you want to advance, you have to "do what it takes," and that may mean using pitchers in a way contrary to what's ideal.

Amen, if there is one thing I can't stand, it is the self-righteous pitcher abuse crowd.

Schafer-136 pitches
Capra - 125 pitches

While I will agree about the self-righteousness comments, there is a HUGE difference letting a guy go 135 three times a year when he pitches once a week and bringing a guy back on short (or no rest) when throwing 75+, especially a power pitcher.

It also isn't like they have been doing this since day 1 this season.

Without question, this season has not been ideal and I have no doubt Brent and Gene have gone longer with Rob, Aaron and Cappy than they would prefer but let's not confuse going longer 1 time a week with some of the brutal 1 and 2 day turnarounds we've seen all too often over the years, including this last weekend.



MOOOOO???

[Rosewood]

136 and 125 pitches aren't the problem. BK has explained this time and time again and I have explained it and others far smarter than I have explained it and if you haven't gotten it by now, I don't think you will.

I like how BK handles this. I would never want a win for one game or one series if it means ruining a guy's arm. I wouldn't trade a CWS title for any one of our pitcher's arm. It isn't worth that risk, period, end of story. End the end, it is just a game versus losing one's career / being in horrible pain for the rest of that guy's life after multiple expensive surgeries.

[WSUShokker]

I think it would behoove Shocker fans to recognize that we have extended Musgrave and Shafer at times this year more than I ever remember doing before. It's a recognition, I think, by our coaches that when it comes to the post season, if you want to advance, you have to "do what it takes," and that may mean using pitchers in a way contrary to what's ideal.

Amen, if there is one thing I can't stand, it is the self-righteous pitcher abuse crowd.

Schafer-136 pitches
Capra - 125 pitches

There are teams in MLB that limit their SP to 100 pitches.

I think it would be different if they played a 60 game regular season schedule...and we all know are situation would be different if we had our usual bullpen and lock down closer.

I kind of wonder though with the starters knowing that the bullpen is not its usual self that maybe not having that luxury maybe that will benefit us. I cant remember going to Omaha without a Bluma, Driefort, or Sublett in the pen...and sometimes they didnt deliver...maybe we relied on that to much...

Oh my i am over analyzing this or what?...good night all..

[SB Shock]

I think it would behoove Shocker fans to recognize that we have extended Musgrave and Shafer at times this year more than I ever remember doing before. It's a recognition, I think, by our coaches that when it comes to the post season, if you want to advance, you have to "do what it takes," and that may mean using pitchers in a way contrary to what's ideal.

Amen, if there is one thing I can't stand, it is the self-righteous pitcher abuse crowd.

Schafer-136 pitches
Capra - 125 pitches

There are teams in MLB that limit their SP to 100 pitches.

I think it would be different if they played a 60 game regular season schedule...

College players play more than 60 game schedule. After the season, most will go to Summer league and play in another 40+ schedule. Then there is fall ball.

Plus there is studies that show that this is a critical period of time where these kids are more susceptible to arm injuries.

[SB Shock]

136 and 125 pitches aren't the problem. BK has explained this time and time again and I have explained it and others far smarter than I have explained it and if you haven't gotten it by now, I don't think you will.

I have to disagree. There is a cumulative effect and plenty of studies that talk about pitcher fatigue (visit baseball prospectus or Boyd's world and look up PAP).

WSU usage this year is not normal. For example, take Shafer pitchcount for this season (* = estimated using Boyd's calculater).

Shafer - 80*
Shafer - 87*
Shafer -107*
Shafer - 94*
Shafer -105
Shafer - 108*
Shafer - 121*
Shafer - 122*
Shafer - 109
Shafer - 123*
Shafer - 105
Shafer - 126*
Shafer - 83
Shafer -133

Shafer PAP is 87,423

For reference purposes, WSU team PAP has been (reference http://www.boydsworld.com/data/ )

2007 - 47,447
2006 - 20,595
2005 - 73,905
2004 - 118,611
2003 - 40,301
2002 - 32,887

Just the usage of Shafer exceeds the WSU TEAM historical PAP of 5 out of 6 years.

[ShockRef]

I think it would behoove Shocker fans to recognize that we have extended Musgrave and Shafer at times this year more than I ever remember doing before. It's a recognition, I think, by our coaches that when it comes to the post season, if you want to advance, you have to "do what it takes," and that may mean using pitchers in a way contrary to what's ideal.

Amen, if there is one thing I can't stand, it is the self-righteous pitcher abuse crowd.

Schafer-136 pitches
Capra - 125 pitches

There are teams in MLB that limit their SP to 100 pitches.

HELLO?

Hello what?
136 & 125 when you throw once a week is not a big deal. Some MLB have 100 pitch counts on certain pitchers mostly due to a season that starts in February and lasts until October. There is a big difference.
WSU is extremely careful with their pitchers. As mentioned, ask Shafer's pop the next time you run into him. 8)

[DUShock]

136 and 125 pitches aren't the problem. BK has explained this time and time again and I have explained it and others far smarter than I have explained it and if you haven't gotten it by now, I don't think you will.

I have to disagree. There is a cumulative effect and plenty of studies that talk about pitcher fatigue (visit baseball prospectus or Boyd's world and look up PAP).

WSU usage this year is not normal. For example, take Shafer pitchcount for this season (* = estimated using Boyd's calculater).

Shafer - 80*
Shafer - 87*
Shafer -107*
Shafer - 94*
Shafer -105
Shafer - 108*
Shafer - 121*
Shafer - 122*
Shafer - 109
Shafer - 123*
Shafer - 105
Shafer - 126*
Shafer - 83
Shafer -133

Shafer PAP is 87,423

For reference purposes, WSU team PAP has been (reference http://www.boydsworld.com/data/ )

2007 - 47,447
2006 - 20,595
2005 - 73,905
2004 - 118,611
2003 - 40,301
2002 - 32,887

Just the usage of Shafer exceeds. the WSU TEAM historical PAP of 5 out of 6 years.

An interesting data set, which leads to many more questions. Good find SB!

Go Shocks!!!!

[Harold_Shox]

I recall Florida St fans being about the nicest guests we've ever had here the week of the NIT game several years ago. There was a lot of mutual respect.

This week and weekend will be fun. Go Shox.

[newshock1234]

anybody got a link to the florida state message board

[RoyalShock]

anybody got a link to the florida state message board

Warchant.com Baseball board

[SHOCKvalue]

don't worry - the civility will end soon.

Living in the MVC area I can say that those stats are inflated due to a weak conference. WSU was the only school to make it out of the conference.

Maybe someone should post the following on their forum in response to such a statement:

FSU SOS- 69th
WSU SOS- 84th

http://www.boydsworld.com/baseball/isr/currentisr.html

With a statistical wash such as this, the weak schedule card should be left in the deck.

EDIT: And I'd like to add that, so far, it's refreshing to see a more respectable fanbase from FSU than the OSU trash we had to deal with last weekend. Hopefully this can continue. Every fanbase has their "homers", but it seems at least as far as various forums' discussion went last weekend, there was virtually zero quality dialog going on between WSU and OSU fans.

[7hottamales]

nm

[7hottamales]

I think it would behoove Shocker fans to recognize that we have extended Musgrave and Shafer at times this year more than I ever remember doing before. It's a recognition, I think, by our coaches that when it comes to the post season, if you want to advance, you have to "do what it takes," and that may mean using pitchers in a way contrary to what's ideal.

Amen, if there is one thing I can't stand, it is the self-righteous pitcher abuse crowd.

Schafer-136 pitches
Capra - 125 pitches

There are teams in MLB that limit their SP to 100 pitches.

HELLO?

Hello what?
136 & 125 when you throw once a week is not a big deal. Some MLB have 100 pitch counts on certain pitchers mostly due to a season that starts in February and lasts until October. There is a big difference.
WSU is extremely careful with their pitchers. As mentioned, ask Shafer's pop the next time you run into him. 8)

Based upon the use of Shafer before arriving at WSU, Dave Van Horn would come off as the utmost custodian of Aaron's arm, but that's not the point. I agree that as far as college baseball is concerned BK is as good as it gets. Having said that, conventional wisdom would certainly not support throwing 120+ pitches in back-to-back starts.

I think the main point is - can we finally just stop worrying about what other teams are doing and start worrying about making them pay for using pitchers to the point where they lose effectiveness?

Perhaps I missed it, but where was all the indignation over OSU's usage of Robbie Weinhardt after the game?

I think our concern for other teams personnel decisions basically comes from our fear of losing more than our concern for Charlie Boyce/Daniel McCutchen/etc. careers.

Just like OSU fans blaming the umps or Gene, we have to find some injustice to blame our failure on.

[SHOCKvalue]

Nuggets...

the Shocker schedule is putrid

True but it can be a big part of their stats and make them a bit inflated. Perhaps they won't have pitchers with 2's for ERA and Connor Gillespie might not have hit .420 against an ACC schedule.

Exactly.

i realize they are a good team or they wouldn't be in a super regional, but playing a soft cream puff schedule does matter, quite a bit.

Again nolefan, FSU SOS is 69th, WSU SOS is 84th. You play in a much more solid conference than we do- given, but in the midweek we prefer not to play St. Mary's of the Quadriplegic (from 3 miles down the road) eighteen times, like yourselves.

FSU, your offense is straight-up awesome, and that department seems to be firing on all cylinders at the moment, but please lose the schedule smack. With the exception of a couple of rainouts this year, our schedule is very similar to what we have always had, and that schedule M.O. seems to have historically worked out just fine for us.

[shockfan89]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree for the most part, but I also feel both teams should operate using the same "rules". If Tulane would have brought their ace back last night and FSU didn't and Tulane won the game, would we be facing the best team or the team with the best pitcher and coach with the "win at all costs" attitude? There is no rule against it so it is fair, and I agree we HAVE to make people pay that do it. Last weekend we did it so nobody complained.

It has always appeared better to extend a guy in a single outing and give him the proper rest than use someone extensively on short rest. Obviously the # of pitches in one week is a gauge, but there is a reason baseball pitchers don't start everygame like they do in softball. They need rest between outings and 3 or 4 days is the default minimum that has been used.

Welcome FSU. Man your team can hit! Any chance you can go in a slump for the weekend?