2017 Valley Tournament Action

[1972Shocker]

Missouri State is clearly the better team. That said I will give the guys credit for not getting steamrolled after the terrible start. Unfortunately, this Shocker team just doesn't seem to have the capacity to deliver at clutch time when they get the opportunities and we had plenty of opportunities today.

[Cdizzle]

Missouri State is clearly the better team. That said I will give the guys credit for not getting steamrolled after the terrible start. Unfortunately, this Shocker team just doesn't seem to have the capacity to deliver at clutch time when they get the opportunities and we had plenty of opportunities today.

Long story short, this was another crappy baseball team.

[1972Shocker]

Long story short, this was another crappy baseball team.

No doubt. They could beat the weak part of their schedule but really struggled against any semblance of a decent team opposing them.

[1972Shocker]

AVG of 51 wins per season for 36 seasons. NEVER a losing season. Not good enough to finish a historic career and transition in a properly dignified (and also strategically smart) way? No! Time for "a new direction" that is now a four season AVG of 26 wins per season. A new direction, yes.

While I agree with your conclusions perhaps we should be honest enough to acknowledge that the 51 wins per season is a bit bloated by 372 wins (or there abouts) over D-II and NAIA competition. We have not played a non-D-1 oppenent during Coach Butler's tenure. Still an average of 41 D-1 wins per year for 36 years is fantastic and not going to be duplicated I don't think. Clearly though the current state of the program is not acceptable but unfortunately we seem to be stuck with it for at least one more year. Maybe two.

I think the biggest differentiator though is post-season success. Again I don't expect to see that happening again to the extent it did in the 80's and 90's either and even though we were falling off a bit in that regard at the end of Gene's reign it had not totally disappeared as it seems to have under Coach Butler.

[UCONN_Husky]

Missouri State announcers are just giddy that SWOMO will be the team that retires WSU from the MVC with a beat down. But they said the torch has long since passed to SWOMO. They also read shockernet and said WSU fans are cranky and pride hurt with the current state of affairs with the program.

Don't forget that Missouri State announcers are probably jealous that the Shockers are joining the #4 conference.

Sorry to see WSU get bounced from the tournament. I think you guys will get back on track in 2 years as I predict Butler will be let go after the 2018 season.

[J2210P]

While I agree with your conclusions perhaps we should be honest enough to acknowledge that the 51 wins per season is a bit bloated by 372 wins (or there abouts) over D-II and NAIA competition. We have not played a non-D-1 oppenent during Coach Butler's tenure. Still an average of 41 D-1 wins per year for 36 years is fantastic and not going to be duplicated I don't think. Clearly though the current state of the program is not acceptable but unfortunately we seem to be stuck with it for at least one more year. Maybe two.

I think the biggest differentiator though is post-season success. Again I don't expect to see that happening again to the extent it did in the 80's and 90's either and even though we were falling off a bit in that regard at the end of Gene's reign it had not totally disappeared as it seems to have under Coach Butler.

Gene is the first head coach in the history of college baseball to reach 1800 wins - all at the Division 1 level. The majority of Division 1 teams have not had a single 41 wins season. The majority also has never competed in the championsip season. What was considered "subpar" in last years was still exceedingly better than most. I agree with your sentiments about the current state, something unfathomable for 36 years of teams who have commanded a big footprint on the national stage. 36 years, 28 championship season appearances.

[WuShock16]

Again, stop with the Gene justification. Even if WSU would have averaged ten more wins in these last four years with Gene (we averaged 35.6 D1 wins in Gene's last five years), the program would still not be at-large quality, and we'd all still be pissed.

Gene was not going to depart in a graceful manner. If it was up to him, I guarantee that he'd still be coaching today, drawing his half-million-dollar salary while not producing at-large teams.

Wanna argue that Todd should be replaced? Fine. Wanna argue that Todd's contract sucks? Fine. Wanna argue that Hooper or Standiford or any other Shocker great should have been hired instead? Fine.

FOR GOD SAKES, STOP SAYING THAT GENE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FIRED!

[J2210P]

Again, stop with the Gene justification. Even if WSU would have averaged ten more wins in these last four years with Gene (we averaged 35.6 D1 wins in Gene's last five years), the program would still not be at-large quality, and we'd all still be pissed.

Gene was not going to depart in a graceful manner. If it was up to him, I guarantee that he'd still be coaching today, drawing his half-million-dollar salary while not producing at-large teams.

Wanna argue that Todd should be replaced? Fine. Wanna argue that Todd's contract sucks? Fine. Wanna argue that Hooper or Standiford or any other Shocker great should have been hired instead? Fine.

FOR GOD SAKES, STOP SAYING THAT GENE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FIRED!

The program is where it is. What happened, happened. Not pointing at anyone or anything. What I AM saying is that if WSU looked at ways to perhaps bring the history in, including looking at how other programs have made transitions (and have created honors) that are respectful of their history, they tend to reap the rewards. It not, the situation can easily yield negatives. I am not stuck in what happened. Yet I would hope that the benefits of properly honoring the history and treating people respectfully - is viewed as a good path to whatever the future brings. Anything otherwise seems terribly short-sighted and completely disrepectful.

[Aargh]

Perhaps if Gene had treated anyone in the athletic department respectfully, this whole situation could have been avoided. Respect is not given it is earned and earning it goes a long ways betond being successful at one's job.

[J2210P]

Perhaps if Gene had treated anyone in the athletic department respectfully, this whole situation could have been avoided. Respect is not given it is earned and earning it goes a long ways betond being successful at one's job.

And like anything, respect is a two way street.

[ShockTalk]

And like anything, respect is a two way street.

Correct me if and where I am wrong, but I believe the athletic department had shown Gene respect, and space, up to and after his return to WSU from OU. Not until the program continued to slip and Gene had more undesirable off-field happenings did really get icy on both sides, particularly with what he was being paid.

Who's to say whether or not the athletic department didn't try to work with Gene, but we are pretty certain Gene was going to run the program only how he wanted to, end of any discussion.

[J2210P]

Correct me if and where I am wrong, but I believe the athletic department had shown Gene respect, and space, up to and after his return to WSU from OU. Not until the program continued to slip and Gene had more undesirable off-field happenings did really get icy on both sides, particularly with what he was being paid.

Who's to say whether or not the athletic department didn't try to work with Gene, but we are pretty certain Gene was going to run the program only how he wanted to, end of any discussion.

End as you wish. I will do as I prefer. Some here have done a fairly astute job of vilification and marginalization without facts for a long, long time.

[J2210P]

Perhaps if Gene had treated anyone in the athletic department respectfully, this whole situation could have been avoided. Respect is not given it is earned and earning it goes a long ways betond being successful at one's job.

A professional lifetime is a long time to retain any position without the key elements -- that include respect.

[J2210P]

Again, stop with the Gene justification. Even if WSU would have averaged ten more wins in these last four years with Gene (we averaged 35.6 D1 wins in Gene's last five years), the program would still not be at-large quality, and we'd all still be pissed.

Gene was not going to depart in a graceful manner. If it was up to him, I guarantee that he'd still be coaching today, drawing his half-million-dollar salary while not producing at-large teams.

Wanna argue that Todd should be replaced? Fine. Wanna argue that Todd's contract sucks? Fine. Wanna argue that Hooper or Standiford or any other Shocker great should have been hired instead? Fine.

FOR GOD SAKES, STOP SAYING THAT GENE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FIRED!

I will argue about nothing. Schools that figure out a way to respect their history - coaches and players - often find themselves in a much better position, whatever the issues are.

[ShockTalk]

End as you wish. I will do as I prefer. Some here have done a fairly astute job of vilification and marginalization without facts for a long, long time.

Sorry. My "end of any discussion" was meant to be discussions between fHCGS and the athletic department, not you or this discussion. My bad.

In fact, I would like just the opposite with you. That is what the beginning of my post was about. We know, with facts, that fADES had big failings regarding a different issue. You said some here are without the facts on this issue, so I assume you must be privy to provable facts. So, I'm always open to listening to facts and making adjustments to my thinking if deemed.