Fire Todd Butler

[Veritas]

I am a basketball guy so I don't have a horse in the race but it seems a little over-reactive to justfy spending close to 3/4 of a million dollars to buy out a coach that had his team in the talks of hosting a NCAA Regional two months ago, owned the Big XII, was highly ranked most of the season, and took a non-competing sub .500 team in a zero-respect conference to being an almost .500 team in one of the best conferences in the country.

I COULD CARE LESS WHETHER BUTLER STAYS OR GOES but:

1) I'm not sure how anyone can deny that the program took a step forward albeit maybe not as big of a step that some fans hoped.

2) I do agree that hiring Hooper would provide a quick shot in the arm, as far as program interest goes, but I doubt it fully covers the cost of the buy out.

3) Hooper did a great job recruiting and coaching men desperate for their last chance for a professional baseball career but does that translate to guaranteed success at the college level? (Aren't we all expecting Penny Hardaway to struggle at Memphis?)

With the amount of Doom, Gloom Hate and Discontent being spewed by obvious Butler haters, it sometimes make me question the motivations behind it

OK. I will shut up now and go back to basketball...because I REALLY don't care!

You pretty much summed up the issue. As a Shocker fan, you don't care! That is becoming the growing sentiment--- even with baseball supporters.

[ShockCrazy]

Show me a coach in D1 that was fired (not for cause) that had a .622 winning percentage or better the year he was fired.

Just one.

I know you picked this season's winning %, but programs that care about success do fire coaches even after winning seasons, heck even after regional appearances. Pete Hughes at OU went 35-24 and appeared in a regional and he was fired last year. Plus you can turn things in all kinds of ways. How many coaches at programs with a CWS appearance have been retained after not making a post season in 5 years and going 13-17-1 against teams .500 or better in his last season?

[WuDrWu]

Thank you, I figured there probably wasn't one. You found one close to home and recent. Thanks again. Maybe we won't be breaking new ground.

[1972Shocker]

I will shut up now and go back to basketball...because I REALLY don't care!

Assuming your support basketball with your dollars and season ticket purchases then you do have at least a pecuniary interest in Shocker baseball and all Shocker sports for that matter. The more successful these sports can be in their own right the more revenues they will generate. Each dollar they generate is a dollar the men's basketball program does not have to subsidize and generate. And of course the opposite is true. So like it or not if you, or perhaps more specifically your pocket book, may be impacted by the success or failure of Shocker baseball.

[ShockerFever]

Show me a coach in D1 that was fired (not for cause) that had a .622 winning percentage or better the year he was fired.

Just one.

So that’s where we’re at now? The winning percentage game?

Do you recall how many of our wins were against sub .500 teams? Are we at that pathetic point for excuse-making where zero postseason and bottom third conference finishes are acceptable, as long as we have a pretty pedestrian.622 winning percentage?

Wtf are we now? Evansville ****ing basketball of baseball?

I guess if that’s the thing we’re shooing for, let’s just schedule the bottom 1/4th of division l in our non-con and let it ride?

Good God that’s weak. I feel like I’m in another dimension right now.

[WuDrWu]

That's weak Fev. Lots of straw in there.

And weren't you done yesterday? ;)

[ShockerFever]

I am a basketball guy so I don't have a horse in the race but it seems a little over-reactive to justfy spending close to 3/4 of a million dollars to buy out a coach that had his team in the talks of hosting a NCAA Regional two months ago, owned the Big XII, was highly ranked most of the season, and took a non-competing sub .500 team in a zero-respect conference to being an almost .500 team in one of the best conferences in the country.

I COULD CARE LESS WHETHER BUTLER STAYS OR GOES but:

1) I'm not sure how anyone can deny that the program took a step forward albeit maybe not as big of a step that some fans hoped.

2) I do agree that hiring Hooper would provide a quick shot in the arm, as far as program interest goes, but I doubt it fully covers the cost of the buy out.

3) Hooper did a great job recruiting and coaching men desperate for their last chance for a professional baseball career but does that translate to guaranteed success at the college level? (Aren't we all expecting Penny Hardaway to struggle at Memphis?)

With the amount of Doom, Gloom Hate and Discontent being spewed by obvious Butler haters, it sometimes make me question the motivations behind it

OK. I will shut up now and go back to basketball...because I REALLY don't care!

Wow.

Yah, stick to basketball.

[Shockm]

I am a basketball guy so I don't have a horse in the race but it seems a little over-reactive to justfy spending close to 3/4 of a million dollars to buy out a coach that had his team in the talks of hosting a NCAA Regional two months ago, owned the Big XII, was highly ranked most of the season, and took a non-competing sub .500 team in a zero-respect conference to being an almost .500 team in one of the best conferences in the country.

I COULD CARE LESS WHETHER BUTLER STAYS OR GOES but:

1) I'm not sure how anyone can deny that the program took a step forward albeit maybe not as big of a step that some fans hoped.

2) I do agree that hiring Hooper would provide a quick shot in the arm, as far as program interest goes, but I doubt it fully covers the cost of the buy out.

3) Hooper did a great job recruiting and coaching men desperate for their last chance for a professional baseball career but does that translate to guaranteed success at the college level? (Aren't we all expecting Penny Hardaway to struggle at Memphis?)

With the amount of Doom, Gloom Hate and Discontent being spewed by obvious Butler haters, it sometimes make me question the motivations behind it

OK. I will shut up now and go back to basketball...because I REALLY don't care!

You are comparing a professional player who coached and evaluated high school teams (with probably some recruitment even if not legal) to a professional player who has coached, evaluated, and legally recruited independent professional players and coached and evaluated minor league players as the Minor League Infield Coordinator for the Padres. Additonally, Hardaway made high school game time decisions, and Hooper made professional game time decisions. It's not an equal comparison.

I'm not sure why we played so poorly on occasions on the weekends (8th place out of 9 teams) where we were swept on 2 or 3 weekends, and played so well the mid week games against Big 12 teams, especially OSU. But I go back to the Valley where we were never competitive for 4 years. I don't think next year is going to be an improved year. I feel confident that Hooper could recruit good players, and while he may need some advisement (counsel) on how to structure his time, and strategies on how many players to recruit, he will be able to handle all of the duties of a Div. 1 Baseball coach.

[WichitaStateGuy]

Show me a coach in D1 that was fired (not for cause) that had a .622 winning percentage or better the year he was fired.

Just one.

Lmao...

Show me ONE...

1- DI Coach
2- That was fired
3- Not for cause
4- With greater than a .622 winning percentage
5- In the year he was fired
6- That's a Sagittarius
7- With brown hair, well tapered
8- That drives a foreign made automobile
9- That enjoys day-time televison

I CHALLENGE YOU TO DO IT, SHOCKERNET.

[Aargh]

Show me a coach in D1 that was fired (not for cause) that had a .622 winning percentage or better the year he was fired.

Just one.

So the way to achieve coaching longevity is to fill the OOC schedule with cream puffs? Then ask people not to look at how you got your great W/L %, but just to look at the number of wins?

[Cdizzle]

had his team in the talks of hosting a NCAA Regional two months ago

Two months is half the season. Should we just extend anyone who gets a team ranked at some point?

, owned the Big XII,

Fair, and interesting, though ultimately worthless.

was highly ranked most of the season,

Highly ranked? Maybe 1 week? Ranked, probably a little over half the season in one of the 14 polls?

and took a non-competing sub .500 team

A team that was non-competing and sub-.500 under, and reasonably because of his leadership.

in a zero-respect conference

Where he managed to finish 3rd, 4th, T5th, 5th

to being an almost .500 team

I can't believe that someone would use this statement as supportive as it stands, with a straight face. If that's where we're at, I have no words left.

Not to mention, I wouldn't call .388 particularly close to .500 to begin with.

in one of the best conferences in the country.

Fair.

[ShockTalk]

Show me a coach in D1 that was fired (not for cause) that had a .622 winning percentage or better the year he was fired.

Just one.

I'll use your above stat to "cherry pick".

1) 16-0 against 6 non-con teams with an average RPI of 195. While there were some blowouts, we had 3 games where we won by 1 run, 1 game by 2, 3 games by 3, and 2 games by 4. In other words, these teams were competitive in 9 of those 16 games.

2) 3-3 against Nebraska (105), ORU (131), and KSU (135)

3) Did not sweep any conference team, not even last place Memphis (188).

4) Take out the above 19 games and the 8th and 9th place conference teams, we were basically 12-16-1 against the top 100 RPI.

[Cdizzle]

This is too cherry-picky and doesn't make any sense. We have the numbers. might as well use them. 14-17-1 against the Top 100. You could just as easily make the same weak argument for being "competitive" against the Top 50 by looking at run differential.

I'm not that interested in getting hung up on the minutiae of breaking down little numbers when we have 5 years of holistic data screaming the same thing.

[Boss1786]

I'll use your above stat to "cherry pick".

1) 16-0 against 6 non-con teams with an average RPI of 195. While there were some blowouts, we had 3 games where we won by 1 run, 1 game by 2, 3 games by 3, and 2 games by 4. In other words, these teams were competitive in 9 of those 16 games.

2) 3-3 against Nebraska (105), ORU (131), and KSU (135)

3) Did not sweep any conference team, not even last place Memphis (188).

4) Take out the above 19 games and the 8th and 9th place conference teams, we were basically 12-16-1 against the top 100 RPI.

Do you happen to have the same stats for the previous season? I would seriously like to see how they compare.

[SB Shock]

So the way to achieve coaching longevity is to fill the OOC schedule with cream puffs? Then ask people not to look at how you got your great W/L %, but just to look at the number of wins?

Butler indicates after last year season he was going to schedule down (it made me cringe when I heard it). He said something to the effect that being in the AAC would allow them to play a softer schedule.

Unfortunately Boyd’s world didn’t update his Pre-season Intended SOS to see if he really followed through or not. I am to apathetic to care enough to try and investigate and will take Butler word that he did do that and that is why they had such a good non-conf result.

[Kung Wu]

How about you show me one D1 baseball coach making $340,000 per year that hasn't had a winning conference record in the past 4 years and is 51-55-1 in 5 seasons never finishing higher than 4th in their conference.

Brad Hill at K-State has a $347,000 salary, a conference record of 138–230–3, and his highest finish is 6th in the past 5 years.

Scott Stricklin at Georgia has a $500,000 salary, a 21-37-1 record, and his highest finish is 5th, but that's only over 3 years.

[Kung Wu]

So it's possible to turn your program around after having several seasons like Stricklin had?

[shockfan89_]

Yes it is completely possible. The difference is Stricklin has been in a conference where finishing 5th or 6th means you are still a top 25 team. Until this year we have been finishing poorly in a mostly bad conference. This year we finished 7th or 8th in a good conference with the best team HCTB has had in 5 seasons.

Do you think we will have a better team next year than this year? The knock on HCTB is we have always said "Next year is the year!" The problem was this is the year we were looking forward to and the results were less than impressive. Now we can't even say "Next year is the year!" anymore. What is the logic for continuing this experiment?

[Kung Wu]

I have no clue. I am not qualified to speak about the baseball situation. I just found a couple data points addressing your question.

[1972Shocker]

Butler indicates after last year season he was going to schedule down (it made me cringe when I heard it). He said something to the effect that being in the AAC would allow them to play a softer schedule.

Unfortunately Boyd’s world didn’t update his Pre-season Intended SOS to see if he really followed through or not. I am to apathetic to care enough to try and investigate and will take Butler word that he did do that and that is why they had such a good non-conf result.

HCTB did, in fact, implement that strategy. According to warrennolan.com our non-con SOS last year was 52 with the Vallley pulling us down to an SOS of 117 overall. This year our non-con SOS was 162 with the AAC raising us to an SOS of 71 overall. The strategy probably would have gotten the Shocks into a regional if they could have just played 0.500 ball or slightly better in the AAC this year.

[Rocky Mountain Shock]

I keep checking this thread daily and come away disappointed.

However, on the bright side, that means I have been to the baseball area of Shockernet more often recently than I have been in YEARS.

So that's nice.