Fire Todd Butler

[Play Angry]

Good ol' double down.

The continuation and extension of the steep, steep decline witnessed during Gene's last half decade at the helm has been disappointing for sure, especially for those of us who have continued to financially support the program financially during both the Gene and Butler eras.

[ShockTalk]

.... and you got what you wanted. Gene's embarrassingly handled termination, a program that no longer has a national reputation as a baseball power, and a drop of local support. Feel better?

It does prove there are risks in firing a HOF coach who never had a losing season.

You chose poorly.

Do you always live in the past? Let it go.

I'm also going to guess that we here on SN weren't the ones that did the actual choosing. So, if you want to feel "one up" on here, go ahead, no one really cares except having to see these posts ad nauseam. We all know how you feel about this subject and, over the last four years, I don't believe you changed anyone's mind.

[shockfan89_]

There is another thread we can discuss fHCGS on. Let's try to keep this one focused on the current coaching situation.

Not trying to put words in @shocker3:'s mouth, but I agree with most of what he was saying and think it is fair to compare the last four years of the prior coach with the last four years of HCTB and ask some questions. Are we going in the direction we want to go? Is there reason to believe things will improve over the next few years if nothing changes? What is the cost to make a change? What is the cost of not making a change?

I have changed just a few words of @shocker3:'s post in an attempt to remove some of the emotion and try to stick with just the facts.

Four years ago (2013) The Shockers finished second in the Valley with a 15-6 record, one game out of first place. They won the Valley tournament at the first place team's home field and went to an NCAA regional, finishing with an overall record of 39-28. That was enough to get the previous coach fired.
Four years later we finish 5th in the Valley (Previous to HCTB, teams NEVER finished that low ever) with a 10-11 conference record and a 27-28 overall record.

[SHOXAAC]

.... and you got what you wanted. Gene's embarrassingly handled termination, a program that no longer has a national reputation as a baseball power, and a drop of local support. Feel better?

It does prove there are risks in firing a HOF coach who never had a losing season.

You chose poorly.

Yes, it was handled poorly. It doesn't change the fact it had to be done. Let's not put our heads in the sand. This program was off the tracks at that point. Gene HAD to go. He had lost all reason on how to get it back on track. This was painfully obvious even to those that loved Gene. It is now in the ditch due to a bad hire. It will be a slow process to get back to some level of success. Patience grasshoppers!!!

[Play Angry]

Guys you won't believe this but I'm pretty sure the take that Butler has failed and deserves to be fired is pretty much unanimous at this point. The question is whether we can maneuver the finances to make it happen this off-season.

The only controversy is Johnny-One-Note screaming into an empty room pretending that everything woulda been awesome had we simply stuck with massively overpaying for a blue diamond rate of decline rather than a double black.

[ShockTalk]

Back to the thread title.

Even though it looked like there might be a slight glimmer of light within the program and there is still "season to go", let's do a summation of the season's accomplishments to this point.

Fifth place finish in the 16th (I believe) ranked conference. Yes, if a few things went differently this weekend, things could have looked better. Well, this is true of the whole season because this is just a poorly ran program at half the salary.

The Shockers finished closer to 6th place (1 1/2 out) than 3rd (2 out), closer to 7th place (3 1/2) than 2nd (5 out), and closer to last place (7 1/2) than 1st (9). All this in the 4th year at the helm while getting paid 1st place money.

What's really disturbing is that Butler is supposedly a good recruiter. One would think that if you could out recruit the other Valley schools you'd still be at or near the top of the Valley after 4 years....not even close.

For me, you've got a big problem as a quality recruiter (and a coach) if you are willing to not even consider players under 6'. The likes of : Mark Standiford, Kevin Hooper, Jeff Ryan, Jim Audley, Nick and Blake Blasi, PJ Forbes, Brian Preston, Matt Patrick, the Bluma brothers (not sure about Jeff), Bryan Burgamy, Randy Young, Chris Wimmer, Travis Wyckoff, Brandon Baird, Carl Hall, and who knows how many 6'ers that weren't that tall when recruited. Our last CWS team had 14 players at the start of the season that were under 6'.

Perhaps, more needs to said in the Eagle and other sports outlets around Wichita. Maybe editorials. We are headed to the American Conference and this is the product that we will be putting on the field. A once proud national program that drifted off into high paid complacency, then tried to change with a new hire, but what only made things worse. That problem appears to be compounded with a contract WSU may feel they cannot handle in order to make another change, one, that hindsight, they probably should have been made the last time.

[Veritas]

Guys you won't believe this but I'm pretty sure the take that Butler has failed and deserves to be fired is pretty much unanimous at this point. The question is whether we can maneuver the finances to make it happen this off-season.

The only controversy is Johnny-One-Note screaming into an empty room pretending that everything woulda been awesome had we simply stuck with massively overpaying for a blue diamond rate of decline rather than a double black.

Speaking to many former baseball players, I can write most feel the way I do. Change your name from Play Angry to Lose Angry because that's what you're left with.

[Play Angry]

Hey now that one really smarts, save that biting wit for the opposition why don'tcha?

[ShockTalk]

Speaking to many former baseball players, I can write most feel the way I do.

This is old news. Given player/coach relationships, I would have been stunned if it had been otherwise.

Change your name from Play Angry to Lose Angry because that's what you're left with.

You give far to much "credit" to SNers that this change happened. Things that get credit not only happened on the field, but off, and full credit for that goes to one person. Krusty didn't get his name for nothing and his lack of love for the athletic department and working with them didn't help either. Overall drop in fan support. What appeared to be a big drop in support from those with the big purse strings.

[Play Angry]

I sure hope we can continue re-litigating this forever with a poster or two who clearly don't give a **** about the future of the program and are loyal to an individual first ahead of the school.

[Veritas]

Hey now that one really smarts, save that biting wit for the opposition why don'tcha?

You are the opposition. You chose to degrade the once proud Shocker baseball program to that of an obsolete has-been because of your short-sightedness, while a few on this board stated it wasn't the right time.
You know I'm right but you aren't woman or man enough to admit your errors in judgement.

Live with your decision and shut up. The damage is done. You and fADES can't spin it any other way.

Hopefully when I'm back from vacation, the Butler will be gone and we can get this program back on track. Have fun while I'm gone and plot the next brilliant move.

[Play Angry]

Sad effort, Veritas. Head on back to your primary allegiance at The Phog any time, but please, give us another one of your patented second-grader emotional meltdowns before you go. Those have been a biennial classic on SN for many years.

The rest of us will look forward to attempting to revive our once-proud program rather than bitterly obsessing on a dismissal nearly a half-decade in the past.

The saddest part is, there really is very little (if any) disagreement on SN over the future direction of the program. You cannot help yourself in refusing to get behind change and support that future direction with the rest of the crowd, and instead you desperately cling to fading divisions based on half-sensical arguments related to the prior regime. Bitterness is a poison, and you imbibe it without moderation.

I would wish you best of luck in your continued rooting for KU, as I haven't seen a post from you rooting for WSU baseball in ~5 years now, but those wishes would be insincere as I wish them nothing but shared cellar-dwelling for perpetuity (paired with KSU) in all sports. Instead, I will wish you and your family good health and a long life of supporting our in-state competitor.

[1972Shocker]

I think it is clear that there will never be any agreement on whether or not it was the right thing to do in terminating Gene. Since we will never know for sure how the program would have fared over the past 4 years if Gene had been retained it is pretty much an argument that is unwinnable. Perhaps the best thing to do is to just move on as neither side can ever prove the other side is wrong.

I do recall that there was general disappointment at the time HCTB was hired that WSU apparently did not consider any of our Shocker favorite sons.

I think it is also clear that there is near total agreement that the HCTB tenure has been a failure and that the poorly thought out contract awarded to him has compounded this problem.

I don't recall anyone on Shockernet having any choice or influence on any of these decisions or how they were made.

I really have no idea whether or not HCTB will be retained after this season.

I have to believe that ADDB is evaluating the net financial hit, if any, of terminating HCTB and replacing him with someone the fans are likely to immediately get behind such as Kevin Hooper or Mark Standiford. Would the revenue increases expected with such a hire offset a good part, if not all, of their compensation over the next 3 years? Can WSU expect the revenue and fan support under a continued HCTB regime to continue to decline? On the latter question I think the answer is yes. I certainly see no reason for the trend to change.

If and when HCTB is replaced, and I think it is only a matter of when, I hope WSU does a better job of structuring a fair contract that provides a very good pay for performance compensation structure while also giving WSU a reasonable ability to make a change in leadership if ever needed after a minimum guaranteed period of no more than 4 years. This applies to anyone they would hire.

We may well know the answer a week from now.

[Keyser Soze]

You are the opposition. You chose to degrade the once proud Shocker baseball program to that of an obsolete has-been because of your short-sightedness, while a few on this board stated it wasn't the right time.
You know I'm right but you aren't woman or man enough to admit your errors in judgement.

Live with your decision and shut up. The damage is done. You and fADES can't spin it any other way.

Hopefully when I'm back from vacation, the Butler will be gone and we can get this program back on track. Have fun while I'm gone and plot the next brilliant move.

I'm cutting the absurdity of Veritas some slack as it's become more about more apparent that with this level of bitterness there is only one possible explanation...Veritas = George Eugene Stephenson

[bleed yellow]

I doubt it happens this year.. Everyone at WSU is distracted by the joining of the AAC right now.