Fire Todd Butler

[CharlieHog]

Weather wise Fayetteville is much closer to you guys than with teams like LSU or Ole Miss or Florida or Bama.

[SB Shock]

I could be wrong but I think that "tickets sold" has always been used for official NCAA attendance numbers. Arkansas used to report actual attendance, too, but so few did that we stopped a few years ago.

I had inquired about this because I was seeing a descrapancy between what was reported in box score and what I was seeing at a game. It was a game they reported as sold out but clearly wasn't. The explanation I received from the athletic department was if they wanted to report at the end of the year to the NCAA sold tickets, then they were required to report "sold" instead of "butts". Now of course I grant you that could have been a convenient excuse to blame the NCAA for their own marketing decisions. But I do know that it creates somewhat skewed picture of WSU attendance that made it look like it had some growth when it was actually an accounting artifact.

[CharlieHog]

I had inquired about this because I was seeing a descrapancy between what was reported in box score and what I was seeing at a game. It was a game they reported as sold out but clearly wasn't. The explanation I received from the athletic department was if they wanted to report at the end of the year to the NCAA sold tickets, then they were required to report "sold" instead of "butts". Now of course I grant you that could have been a convenient excuse to blame the NCAA for their own marketing decisions. But I do know that it creates somewhat skewed picture of WSU attendance that made it look like it had some growth when it was actually an accounting artifact.

You may very well be right and that it was less standardized in 1999 than it is now. So you think the 1999 number is actual attendance, and the 2016 is tickets sold? The way we used to do it was report BOTH in the box score, and the official NCAA number was the tickets.

Regardless, I think the point holds that college baseball became a bigger deal nationally around the time that the NCAA switched to the 64-team regional format, and that made it more competitive for everyone. Hosting the post-season creates excitement and builds momentum for the program. (Except for the west coast, where they don't seem to care at all.)

[SB Shock]

You may very well be right and that it was less standardized in 1999 than it is now. So you think the 1999 number is actual attendance, and the 2016 is tickets sold? The way we used to do it was report BOTH in the box score, and the official NCAA number was the tickets.

Yes. I believe numbers before the 2000 season where butt in seat. The 2016 numbers are definitely "sold". It funny watching games on TV this year and u will see reported attendance as 1,900+, and you can count a handful (only number that might be missing is those sitting in All-American club).

Regardless, I think the point holds that college baseball became a bigger deal nationally around the time that the NCAA switched to the 64-team regional format, and that made it more competitive for everyone. Hosting the post-season creates excitement and builds momentum for the program. (Except for the west coast, where they don't seem to care at all.)

I agree. Going to the super-regional format has gotten baseball much more exposure with a lot more parts of the country involved. But here in Wichita we haven't seen that excitement for the longest time. Last time WSU hosted a regional was 2007. WSU only made only I think 3 supers since it changed after 1999 (18 years). WSU hasn't been to a CWS since '96 (21 years).

[RoyalShock]

My first post said he was still on deck ie; not up to bat yet. He was not in the on deck circle or anywhere near it as we all know. I suppose I should have made that clear in my original post as it was directed at a poster who had no knowledge of the incident.

Both sides have to take some blame IMO. Evansville should not have antagonized Christensen and or Kemnitz. WSU should have simply asked the umpire to make Molina get back in the box in accordance with the rules instead of throwing at him.

Anyway, the past is the past and please take Butler back with you @CharlieHog

What's been left out in the re-telling - and where I think Kemnitz could have been punished even further - is that Molina appeared to be timing pitches. I wasn't there but since Molina wasn't looking I don't think he was doing that. Anyway, Christensen's comments after the incident indicated that WSU pitchers were taught by BK that timing warm-up pitches was a violation of an unwritten rule and the appropriate response was to through a soft warm-up pitch in the hitter's general direction (not hit him) as a warning. I believe BC thought it was his duty to deal with it due to what he was taught. It was a poorly handled situation all the way around, with plenty of blame to go around.

[shockfan89_]

Two things that still bother me today about the incident:

1. The media always reports Molina was standing near the on deck circle. While technically true, they always seem to leave out that he was near WSU's on deck circle, not Evansville's on deck circle. Huge difference.

2. The number of baseball "insiders" that have been around the sport their entire life and had never heard of a brushback pitch? Really? I was taught that in high school. Taught that if you show up a pitcher you better be ready for some chin music or to take one in the middle of your back. It amazes me that major college pitching coaches had never heard of these concepts. LOL

I know I come from a different time and many will disagree with me, but I absolutely think Christensen should have thrown at him. You need to know the rules (written and unwritten) for the sports you are playing. I wish he would have hit him in the ribs or the knee or Molina would have been looking and ducked out of the way, but any pitching coach of any worth should still instruct their pitches to throw at someone that needs to be "reminded" of the unwritten rules.

[pinstripers]

Two things that still bother me today about the incident:

1. The media always reports Molina was standing near the on deck circle. While technically true, they always seem to leave out that he was near WSU's on deck circle, not Evansville's on deck circle. Huge difference.

2. The number of baseball "insiders" that have been around the sport their entire life and had never heard of a brushback pitch? Really? I was taught that in high school. Taught that if you show up a pitcher you better be ready for some chin music or to take one in the middle of your back. It amazes me that major college pitching coaches had never heard of these concepts. LOL

I know I come from a different time and many will disagree with me, but I absolutely think Christensen should have thrown at him. You need to know the rules (written and unwritten) for the sports you are playing. I wish he would have hit him in the ribs or the knee or Molina would have been looking and ducked out of the way, but any pitching coach of any worth should still instruct their pitches to throw at someone that needs to be "reminded" of the unwritten rules.

I always thought "throwing at" was intentional and deserved. I just figured the ball got away from him. Nobody throws at the head, except maybe the Royals bullpen.

[ArtVandalay]

Two things that still bother me today about the incident:

1. The media always reports Molina was standing near the on deck circle. While technically true, they always seem to leave out that he was near WSU's on deck circle, not Evansville's on deck circle. Huge difference.

2. The number of baseball "insiders" that have been around the sport their entire life and had never heard of a brushback pitch? Really? I was taught that in high school. Taught that if you show up a pitcher you better be ready for some chin music or to take one in the middle of your back. It amazes me that major college pitching coaches had never heard of these concepts. LOL

I know I come from a different time and many will disagree with me, but I absolutely think Christensen should have thrown at him. You need to know the rules (written and unwritten) for the sports you are playing. I wish he would have hit him in the ribs or the knee or Molina would have been looking and ducked out of the way, but any pitching coach of any worth should still instruct their pitches to throw at someone that needs to be "reminded" of the unwritten rules.

To me, if you're going to throw at the guy, you should at least wait until he gets into the batters box.

[DUShock]

Two things that still bother me today about the incident:

1. The media always reports Molina was standing near the on deck circle. While technically true, they always seem to leave out that he was near WSU's on deck circle, not Evansville's on deck circle. Huge difference.

2. The number of baseball "insiders" that have been around the sport their entire life and had never heard of a brushback pitch? Really? I was taught that in high school. Taught that if you show up a pitcher you better be ready for some chin music or to take one in the middle of your back. It amazes me that major college pitching coaches had never heard of these concepts. LOL

I know I come from a different time and many will disagree with me, but I absolutely think Christensen should have thrown at him. You need to know the rules (written and unwritten) for the sports you are playing. I wish he would have hit him in the ribs or the knee or Molina would have been looking and ducked out of the way, but any pitching coach of any worth should still instruct their pitches to throw at someone that needs to be "reminded" of the unwritten rules.

I agree with you regarding your first point.

But I am one of those who respectfully disagree with your second point.

The brushback is for crowding the plate during play, as everyone's favorite importer/exporter said, " if you're going to throw at the guy, you should at least wait until he gets into the batters box."

I say this as a guy that believes in a modicum of baseball code.

At the end of the day all of this is water under the bridge.



Better Days! For the love of God, Better Days!

Go Shocks!

[1972Shocker]

I thought it was wrong and I also thought it was dumb as hell. There was nothing defensible about it and yes, it did hurt Wichita State, Wichita State Baseball, Gene Stephenson, Brent Kemnitz and especially Ben Christenson and most especially Anthony Molina. Not sure what the ultimate costs have been for all the parties but is has been significant.

Hell here we are still talking about it 18 years after the fact. How many other moments stick out in the minds of Shocker baseball fans as vividly. There is, of course, the final pitch of the 1989 World Series with Greg Brummett jumping into the arms of Eric Wedge and raising his arm with the #1 sign, there was The Throw authored by Jim Audley in the CWS, there was The Catch authored by Matt Brown and their was the Molina Incident authored by Ben Christensen. Not exactly the legacy Ben had in mind I'm sure.

Like it or not it is part of the DNA of Wichita State Baseball and a stain I'm sure everyone regrets immensely.

Most of us do dumb things in our lives but most of the time they don't backfire on us to any significant degree and we can look back on them and laugh. This was one of the few times it didn't work out that way. It is what is is and we move on and do the best and be the best that we can.

[DJShocker10]

To me, if you're going to throw at the guy, you should at least wait until he gets into the batters box.

Bright side of doing it before hand is you save the free base!

[SB Shock]

Bright side of doing it before hand is you save the free base!

Downside is you don't pitch for that game and are suspended for a number of games after being ejected (which is what would have happened if BC hadn't hit Molina).

[WstateU]

[wheathead]

What else is there to say that hasn't already been said. This is on the verge of 90s basketball bad.

[Shockers5150]

Yep. Bottom feeders in the valley. What a way to go out.